liminal_luke

Maybe I´ve watched too many crime shows on Netflix, but the analogy that comes to my mind here is jury selection. My understanding is that, at least in the US, both the defence and the prosecution in a criminal trial are allowed to get rid of a certain number of potential jurors without cause. The way I see it, Maddie used one of her free strikes to eliminate Salvijus. It doesn´t matter whether Salvijus is a troll or not -- he is stricken. Actually, I think Maddie´s been remarkably judicious with her strikes. We´re 15 pages in and only one down. Given the controversial nature of the topic, and given the fact that Maddie is not a paid trans consultant, that´s pretty darn amazing.

I agree with silent thunder about the restraint. This is a difficult topic and I think you´ve navigated through it skillfully. I´ve expressed views which, in my own opinion, don´t align with mainstream trans views and you´ve been remarkably tolerant. Not everyone would have been so it´s much appreciated.

Salvijus made a big show of just wanting to explore the issues but, to my ear, it was just that -- a show. Underneath the just-asking-questions persona there was considerable hostility. I could be wrong, of course, but this is how I read him. I´m glad we´re done with that thread of the conversation.

Maybe I´m just imagining this, but you do look much more at home in your body as a woman. To me, the picture of you as a guy has a bit of a nails-on-a-chalkboard feeling that I don´t see in your present day images. I think when we´re more comfortable with ourselves, it´s easier for other people to be comfortable with us too. Wow!

As you might guess from my name, I´m a big fan of in-between states and ambiguity. I think that´s where the power is.

@blue eyed snake Totally agree that people cannot choose. If I told you that I am a transgender woman that would be a lie. I am not and cannot become one by announcement. In general, I trust adults who say they are transgender. I trust you and Maddie. But of course there are people who will lie for nefarious reasons and that´s a problem, for all of us, but especially for people who are legitimately trans. I don´t know the emotional discomfort of feeling like I was born in the wrong body. That´s never been a part of my experience so I can´t claim to know what it´s like. I do know many other kinds of lonliness and alienation as those are universal human experiences. I believe trans people when they tell me that it´s painful being in the wrong body, sometimes very painful. I hope that trans people everywhere can feel comfortable with themselves and society at large, and if social or medical transitioning helps then I´m all for it. We´re all just trying to be happy. I try, in general, not to be an asshole. A big part of that is not judging people when I don´t know anything about their circumstances. So I try not to judge people who look different than I do or want to use alternative pronouns. I´ll admit to a bit of discomfort around a few of the less conventional pronouns but, what can I say, I´m a work in progress. At the same time, I hope there´s room for people who think that people are (mostly) born male or female, and that physical anatomy is what makes the difference. People ought to be able to say that without incurring moral scorn. I can think that people remain the gender they are "assigned at birth" and still be a good person. To me, it´s just a matter of what definitions we are choosing to use. Question: Am I morally required to see people as they see themselves?

... Edited out. What can I say -- sometimes ya feel like a TERF, sometimes ya don´t.

To my thinking, it all comes down to definitions. Some people say that gender is a social construct and that people can be cis or trans depending on the alignment of their subjectively chosen gender with their biological sex. This is Maddie´s position. Others say that gender is an immutable biological characteristic generally, but not always, apparent at birth. This is Jadespear´s position. Where you go with this topic depends on which definition you pick. Neither definition is morally wrong; they´re just definitions. In either case, transgender people exist and have a right to human dignity like everyone else.

A professor of mine in college taught me that sex was something you did with another person and gender referred to maleness or femaleness. But that was a long time ago.

@Salvijus Eh....I think it was courageous of Maddie to start this thread, and I´m glad it gave us the chance to ask questions and voice opinions about this sometimes divisive topic. It´s gone better than I would of predicted. I think it´s one thing to comment on the science, politics, or societal implications of transgenderism; and another thing entirely to weigh in on somebody else´s personal choices. Maddie says she´s happier now that she has transitioned and I see no reason not to believe her. The way I see it, personal experience always trumps (pun very much not intended) abstract spiritual theory about chi or ghosts or Buddhist doctrine. Maddie is happy, or at least happier, and I am happy for her. What more is there to say?

I always know my various spiritual practices are working when my voice goes down in pitch, though perhaps that´s just me. My baseline level of anxiety keeps it in a higher register and qigong and meditation tend to bring it back to what I consider my natural, lower voice.

Billy Joel - She's Always A Woman (from Old Grey Whistle Test) (youtube.com)

Like many people, I´m not at all bothered by trans people. It makes no difference to me how someone else dresses, how someone prefers to be addressed, or what medical procedures they do or do not get. Why should it? I figure we´re all just trying to be happy, and if transgender people take steps to transition and that makes them happy -- more power to them. Things get a little more triggery, however, when advocacy on behalf of trans folk starts to upend my understanding of my own gender and how I see the world. Gender is at the very heart of what it means to be a human being. I think trans issues bring up strong reactions for some cis people for the same reasons that misgendering often brings up strong reactions in trans people: we care about how others see us. I recently read about an orientation at a college (Harvard, I think). Freshman students were asked to go around a circle introducing themselves and sharing their preferred pronouns. Thankfully, I won´t be enrolling in Harvard anytime soon so I probably shouldn´t waste too much cognitive space thinking about this. Still -- oh my God! I don´t want to have to give my preferred pronouns. I want for people to look at me and tell that I am a male. All my life people have looked at me and known that I´m a male and now suddenly they can´t? Or are not supposed to? This is profoundly discombobulating. Did you know that on some gay dating/hookup apps it´s no longer possible to filter people by trans/cis status? Let´s say I only want to meet hairy, fat guys like me. I can set up the app so that I only see profiles of "bears." I can even set up the app so that I can only see profiles of guys of a certain age or even guys of a certain ethnicity. What I can´t do is set up the app so that I see only profiles of guys that were born with penises. Does this strike anybody as odd? I assume the reason for this policy is that I´m not supposed to limit my dating/hooking up activity to guys born with penises. To do so would be wrong. To do so would make me guilty of the sin of transphobia. The world has gone nuts! And then there´s the whole "pregnant people" thing. In my mind, women get pregnant and give birth. I´m told there are lots of disadvantages to being a woman. They´re often paid less than guys for the same work. They are often expected to do more than their share of cooking and cleaning and childcare. There are entire countires where it´s arguably not safe for them to travel alone. But one thing women do have going for them is the pregnancy and giving birth thing. That is theirs. I don´t think it´s right to take that away from women and give it to people in general. None of these things are that big a deal in my actual life, granted. But trans issues are changing the culture in huge ways and not just for trans people. We´re all being asked to change. At the very least, that takes some getting used to.

I know the "some" part from my own experience. How do you know the "not all"? Seems to me that would be a difficult thing to know with confidence because how would we know what would happen if we just kept going.

I can confirm that meditation can indeed bring up deeply buried impulses and feelings. It´s terrible that way.