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#1 gossamer

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 01:07 PM

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").


2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").




Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

Neither do I like the terms "black" or "white" magic.

I think that magic is like electricity, or even atomic power, and can plainly be used to do good or evil.

I think that most chaos magic doesn't work very effectively, because most of it is done with a totally impure heart, and I frankly don't think that people who's who lives are in a mess are very effective magicians.

How can their words contain all that much power, if they can't tell the truth about anything?

Am I saying that negative magic has NO power, nope, but OK so you screw up someone's sleep, well OK, but that's not the same thing as killing them.

Mostly, in my opinion, magic has to be believed in to be very effective.

That's the key in chaos magic, I think. Can you get someone to believe in your BS, and began to get them to doubt themselves?

On the other hand, to want someone to be raised to higher level of awareness or consciousness, and to have a better understanding and grasp of goodness, love, compassion, and virtue..........well, how can that NOT be a positive thing?

I suppose if you violate their freewill it might be, but aside from that, if you perform magic on their behalf and they are aware of it, and agree with it, then I would see that as positive magic.

I think these days that I find myself not drawn to ANY kind of magic, but only to more growth spiritually.

And I personally find spirituality, a whole different kind of critter then magic.

Religious Daoism seems to have a whole lot of various kinds of magic to it, and I personally find that not a part of the kind of Dao life that I'm interested in, or that I'm looking for.

And that's not meant as an offense to anyone on this forum either.


And maybe there's another kind of magic that I missed above, and that's defensive magic.

Is it either positive or negative?

Neither really, it's maybe a kind of shield, like the Purple Bubble that YaMu taught me.

It's seems that if someone aims negativity or negative (chaos) magic at you, and gets harmed in return. Well, that's not really your fault. Is it now?

Maybe we who are Seekers need to learn some good defensive magic, because the places that we walk are so fraught with danger, and we potentially can (or WILL) run into people that are out of balance (it's still "A Question of Balance", just as 'The Moody Blues' said so many years ago).

Anyway, those are my thoughts about magic.

It's ALL in the belief, or NOT, of both the sender, *and* the receiver.

Just one opinion, and I'd be interested to hear more.

Peace, gossamer

Edited by gossamer, 28 December 2008 - 01:11 PM.


#2 h.uriahr

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 01:15 PM

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").
2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").
Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

Neither do I like the terms "black" or "white" magic.

I think that magic is like electricity, or even atomic power, and can plainly be used to do good or evil.

I think that most chaos magic doesn't work very effectively, because most of it is done with a totally impure heart, and I frankly don't think that people who's who lives are in a mess are very effective magicians.

How can their words contain all that much power, if they can't tell the truth about anything?

Am I saying that negative magic has NO power, nope, but OK so you screw up someone's sleep, well OK, but that's not the same thing as killing them.

Mostly, in my opinion, magic has to be believed in to be very effective.

That's the key in chaos magic, I think. Can you get someone to believe in your BS, and began to get them to doubt themselves?

On the other hand, to want someone to be raised to higher level of awareness or consciousness, and to have a better understanding and grasp of goodness, love, compassion, and virtue..........well, how can that NOT be a positive thing?

I suppose if you violate their freewill it might be, but aside from that, if you perform magic on their behalf and they are aware of it, and agree with it, then I would see that as positive magic.

I think these days that I find myself not drawn to ANY kind of magic, but only to more growth spiritually.

And I personally find spirituality, a whole different kind of critter then magic.

Religious Daoism seems to have a whole lot of various kinds of magic to it, and I personally find that not a part of the kind of Dao life that I'm interested in, or that I'm looking for.

And that's not meant as an offense to anyone on this forum either.
And maybe there's another kind of magic that I missed above, and that's defensive magic.

Is it either positive or negative?

Neither really, it's maybe a kind of shield, like the Purple Bubble that YaMu taught me.

It's seems that if someone aims negativity or negative (chaos) magic at you, and gets harmed in return. Well, that's not really your fault. Is it now?

Maybe we who are Seekers need to learn some good defensive magic, because the places that we walk are so fraught with danger, and we potentially can (or WILL) run into people that are out of balance (it's still "A Question of Balance", just as 'The Moody Blues' said so many years ago).

Anyway, those are my thoughts about magic.

It's ALL in the belief, or NOT, of both the sender, *and* the receiver.

Just one opinion, and I'd be interested to hear more.

Peace, gossamer


A really cool and great man once said "whether you believe in qi or not, qi works, if someone doesnt believe it will just take a bit longer to work than someone who does believe"
Oh, I am so unfortunate that this has happened to me. Not at all, but rather How fortunate I am that, even though this has happened to me, I continue uninjured, neither terrified by the present, nor in fear of the future.

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Take it easy on me. This is my first blog :)



I'm a Believer in Christ Jesus and the Blood that He shed :)

#3 Mal

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 01:44 PM

Mostly, in my opinion, magic has to be believed in to be very effective.

That's the key in chaos magic, I think. Can you get someone to believe in your BS, and began to get them to doubt themselves?


I'd use different terminology to chaos magic, but I like your thinking.
KAP

bye for now
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#4 h.uriahr

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 02:44 PM

A really cool and great man once said "whether you believe in qi or not, qi works, if someone doesnt believe it will just take a bit longer to work than someone who does believe"

Qi can be just like a gun....
Belief, IMO doesnt affect anything.

If you were raised to believe guns cant hurt you and you end up getting shot...does the bullet penetrate?
Oh, I am so unfortunate that this has happened to me. Not at all, but rather How fortunate I am that, even though this has happened to me, I continue uninjured, neither terrified by the present, nor in fear of the future.

Marcus Aurelius

My training blog http://thepathlesstr...3.blogspot.com/


Take it easy on me. This is my first blog :)



I'm a Believer in Christ Jesus and the Blood that He shed :)

#5 Stigweard

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 07:27 PM

Magic … undoubtedly one of my most favorite topics in the whole world. A topic that inspires me to pour another cup of tea, make some vegemite on toast, get all cozy in my chair and let the inspiration flow :D

You and I, all of us, we are all magicians, it’s just some of us do it consciously and others are oblivious to the power they wield every day. People in the later category unfortunately can fall prey to those ‘in the know’ who have learned how to harness other people’s ‘magic’ for their own ends.

So what is magic? Similarly we can ask, “What is Tao?” because magic, true magic, is the lifeblood of the Universe; the glue that ‘binds’ it all together.

Let me suggest that magic is the intentional act of creation.

How did life become distinct? How did the 10,000 myriad things arise out of the primordial soup of the ‘mysterious mother’?

Let me suggest once more it was through the coalescing of universal energy into the form designated by intention.

Consider the act of casting a magic spell. How is it traditionally done?

Here is the basic formula:

Energy + Intention = Magic

So how do we ‘raise’ the energy required to perform magic?

Firstly we all have our own personal quotient of energy.

Humans are naturally endowed with prenatal and postnatal energy. Prenatal (before birth) energy is your inheritance from your mother and father plus your own ‘spark’ of universal energy. Postnatal (after birth) comes from the air you breathe and the food/drink you consume. The combination of prenatal energy and postnatal energy gives you an absolute powerhouse of rich, vital energy.

Prenatal energy is non-variable. What you start with is what you start with … period. Postnatal energy is however quite variable. Better quality air, food, and water give you more energy, and of course the vice versa is true.

It is also important to note that we can lose energy. In Taoist terms we lose energy via the “5 Thieves”, i.e. our five senses. Indulging in the distractions of our senses saps and drains our energy like nothing else.

We also ‘lose energy’ through the formation of artificial constructs of the mind. What I like to call ‘Psychodiverticuli’. These are psycho-energetic conglomerates within our personal energy field created through social conditioning. These are our abstracted beliefs, addictions, and personality features that are ‘diversions’ away from the pure, natural, unconditioned awareness of our new-born awareness.

We lose energy through these Psychodiverticuli in two ways:
• they siphon energy away from the main flow of our life force forming ‘pockets’ of artificial or contrived psycho-energy,
• indulgence in or over-association with these Psychodiverticuli drain our energy because it is through these pockets of artificial consciousness that we lose energy to the 5 Thieves.

You can also lose energy through ‘giving it away’ to others, having it forcibly taken from you, and, if you entertain the notion of spiritual entities, you can have your energy ‘eaten’ by said spiritual entities.

Now for the good news. ;) You can build or increase your energy.

The easiest option is clean, life-abundant air, food, drink etc. On top of this you have the treasure-loaded traditions of Tao, because you have available to you the full spectrum of Taoist cultivation arts. Arts like:

• Nei Tan, Internal Medicine,
• Tai Shi, Internal Breathing,
• Tao Yin, Energy Channeling, etc, etc.

Now some may argue that we can never ‘gain’ more energy then we have already, and that these practices merely open your awareness to what is already there. Regardless of the technical details, the bottom line is that these practices do in fact bring more energy into your conscious awareness and control.

One of the primary benefits of Taoist arts is that they are in my experience the most effective way of dissolving the above-mentioned Psychodiverticuli, releasing back into the ‘main flow’ the relevant diverted energy and fundamentally removing the instigators of the 5 Thieves.

So consuming high-grade postnatal energy and practicing Taoist cultivation equals the multiplication of one’s available life-force.

Other ways to build energy for magic:
• Summoning elemental forces,
• Gaining the assistance of non-organic beings.

So now we have gathered a mother-load of energy. Now what?

Remember the formula: Energy + Intention = Magic

Intention comes from the Latin tenet and tenere meaning to “stretch” and “hold”, or “to cause to maintain.”

Intention = to cause to maintain (!!)

Consider this quote from Theun Mares in “The Return of the Warriors”:

There is a mysterious force know as intent which exists throughout the entire universe. It is this force which brings about perception, for it is intent which, firstly, aligns the energy fields, and secondly, causes awareness of that alignment.


Intention = to cause a perception of the world and maintain that awareness.

In Taoist terminology intention = Yi. Consider this time-honored Taoist formula:

"Where the Yi goes, the Qi goes; and where the Qi goes, the Jin follows"

Yi = Intention
Qi = Energy
Jin = Physical being

When we cause and maintain a perception of the world that is where our available energy will ‘go’ and our physical reality will automatically ‘follow’ in perfect resonance.

How then do we train and direct intention?

Once again I give grateful approbation to our Taoist arts for not only do they escalate our energy quotient but they also aid in the act of handling intent. Hence we have arts like Yiquan, Taijiquan and the like. Also we have:

• Chun Shih, visualization or concentration, and of course,
• Fu Jyeo, Secret Talismanic Characters, Words and also Invocations.

The images we maintain in our minds and the words we use are the primary directors of our intent. If you want to change the physical reality of your life then change these primary directors.

All rituals, all spells, all talismans, all invocations, all any type of magical workings are there to focus and maintain intention.

In fact the very act of stringing the magical symbols of letters together to form a word to encapsulate an intent was one of the earliest manifestations of magic. Why do you think we still call it spell-ing? ;)

And so we arrive at what I might refer to as a true (or at least a ‘very good’) definition of magic:

The creative application of images and words to cause and maintain a perception of the world that directs the flow of personal and universal energy in order to manifest the intended physical reality.

:D

Edited by Stigweard, 28 December 2008 - 08:08 PM.


#6 Mak_Tin_Si

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:36 AM

In Taoism, the FAAT is translated as "magic" already. The white and black is only for those in western, it is a western way of categorizing their "magic".

In Chinese, these western magic like wicca and witchcrafts are called "Mo Sut" 巫術, and Taoism's magic is called "FAAT sut" 法術. FAAT sut is higher than MO sut because MO sut is what FAAT sut comes from. I mean that MO sut is a more native form of magic, while FAAT sut is a more advanced form.

The energy used for western magic or any native magic (Mo sut) is qi from 5 elements, things on earth but nothing else higher than that.

For FAAT, we use energy in universe, and outside universe etc,. Which is more pure and condensed.

Even these magic in wicca and witchcrafts also try to call in the energy from moon and sun, it is really NOT the energy from moon and sun that they have used.

I do know wiccans who are in a very high level training in black magic (western style) But what they do is really not as powerful. If you compared these black magic to the "gong tau" in thailand, they are really no match. If you compare the power to taoism magic.. no need for furthur discussions.

The only pros about magic (wicca and witchcrafts) is that it is easy to learn and they do not have much restrictions for a person. But from experience, you gained bad health from practising these. Your health, luck and also way of thinking changed. More negative thoughts, less control over your mind.


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#7 Taoist81

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:50 AM

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").
2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").
Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.


Your terms are off a bit here. "Chaos Magick" is simply magick performed within the Chaos Magick "system", if you can call something as disjointed as Chaos Magick a system. Most westerner magick practitioners differentiate between white and black magick depending on how the magick is used.
Aleister Crowley defined magick as "Causing change to occur in conformity to Will", with Will being a divine or True Will, not just whatever one wants at the moment. He also claimed that the union with ones Holy Guardian Angel or Higher Self was the one true goal of all magick, and that any magick performed without this as its goal was "Black Magick". So, while the want for power may draw some into the study of the occult, one cannot (as you and Mak point out) get very far without higher goals in mind.

#8 WuDao

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 08:17 AM

.


Edited by WhiteMoon, 13 August 2013 - 05:19 PM.


#9 sheng zhen

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:11 AM

The easiest option is clean, life-abundant air, food, drink etc. On top of this you have the treasure-loaded traditions of Tao, because you have available to you the full spectrum of Taoist cultivation arts. Arts like:

• Nei Tan, Internal Medicine,
• Tai Shi, Internal Breathing,
• Tao Yin, Energy Channeling, etc, etc.

Hello Stigweard.

Wonderful post! Thank you. I love the word psyhcodivertivuli :D

I have seen Tai Shi(Tai Xi is the same, right?) explained in several other places, but it seems (as always with taoism) that different teacher have different definitions. So its hard to understand what is ment by it.

Would you be so kind to explain a little more about Tai Shi and what it is all about? Maybe it deserves its own thread?

#10 Stigweard

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 01:10 PM

Hello Stigweard.

Wonderful post! Thank you. I love the word psyhcodivertivuli :D

I have seen Tai Shi(Tai Xi is the same, right?) explained in several other places, but it seems (as always with taoism) that different teacher have different definitions. So its hard to understand what is ment by it.

Would you be so kind to explain a little more about Tai Shi and what it is all about? Maybe it deserves its own thread?



In my experience Tai Shi is internal qi breathing which coordinates with but is much 'deeper' than external breathing. Tai Shi follows the natural pulse, rhythm and flow of qi through the major centres and pathways.

There are many different methods. Perhaps accomplished qigong practitioners like Ya Mu could share their views on Tai Shi. :)

#11 maximolevel

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:09 PM

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").
2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").
Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

Neither do I like the terms "black" or "white" magic.



I do know wiccans who are in a very high level training in black magic (western style) But what they do is really not as powerful. If you compared these black magic to the "gong tau" in thailand, they are really no match. If you compare the power to taoism magic.. no need for furthur discussions.

The only pros about magic (wicca and witchcrafts) is that it is easy to learn and they do not have much restrictions for a person. But from experience, you gained bad health from practising these. Your health, luck and also way of thinking changed. More negative thoughts, less control over your mind.
Mak Tin Si


First let me say that there is not a such thing as black or whit magic! Because it is the same magic! Only amateurs use the worlds or know only the words white and black magic!

not only less control of mind some, have become crazy and wanted to be more crazy, because they then knew Satan powers were more stronger, in short they were not they any more :o

Regards

:)

Edited by maximolevel, 29 December 2008 - 05:55 PM.


#12 maximolevel

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:46 PM

Magic is the occult force of nature that the magician can know and use!
Because is like a spider net everything is connected!
Magic is good and bad at the same time, only in the year 1400 whit church problems over all Europe did people begun to talk about Black magic ( that they talked or have communication whit Satan and his spirits) or White magic (people that use methods against black magic) Man in fact have a kind of war agains these Black magicians people! ( Note these were not the highest magicians!!)

After these period people begun in Europe to develop a magic call : magia naturalis!

Well if we return to the root: Magic have connections about what you think, feel etc.

The Magicians were in 1400 and 1500 after Christ very respectable members in society and they were very intelligent people, some read many books on the subject in their life, ( to many difficult ones like the Key of Solomon that i said before in this forum etc) They knew many languages and that is why they could read many ancient secrets found in very limited occult books! They could also read signs and strangers numbers , they knew very much about the space ( stars, planets etc) They could read the destiny of the village using the stars and many stuff!

They knew alchemy, they knew the power of herbs etc! So when you think about these ancient Magicians just remember they were people so much high in knowledge that we are not near or can imagine how they indeed could! Many of these secrets are gone now and are only write in books ( that little part of the big Magic part that is the no write word) many of which no body understand today, or stuff write in the walls of the piramids and place like that! Some signs are even in a unkown language!

They were man and women and they could in a kind of way get inspiration whit angels and knew the difference between bad and good spirits ( no human spirits) The magicians were many times in the King council and generals councils until the church begun to ( now i speaking about the area of Europe) said that only God could and give the power of goodness and from then they said that magicians were under the power of Satan and then they (the magicians) were running away and hidden themselves! Many Magic books were burn by Church people!

Questions and comments are very much welcome
:)
anima mundi

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Posted Image

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Edited by maximolevel, 29 December 2008 - 05:57 PM.


#13 sheng zhen

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 02:19 AM

In my experience Tai Shi is internal qi breathing which coordinates with but is much 'deeper' than external breathing. Tai Shi follows the natural pulse, rhythm and flow of qi through the major centres and pathways.

There are many different methods. Perhaps accomplished qigong practitioners like Ya Mu could share their views on Tai Shi. :)

I see. Thanks!

Then I hope Ya Mu would like to contribute too ;)

#14 Ya Mu

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:49 AM

I see. Thanks!

Then I hope Ya Mu would like to contribute too ;)


Sorry, guys, I know no more than what you have expressed. My Chinese language abilities suck and as such I have more tried to get the inner knowledge than the technical.

I believe it refers to the natural inner qi flow that occurs when we practice, or at a lessor rate, when we breathe, possibly has to do with the interaction of the permeating energy body, the energy centers, and the internal circulation. But I really don't have any particular knowledge about it. I think that , in terms of cultivation it just happens and there is no need to really consider it.
It is interesting that the KI3 point is called Tai Xi. This is a "stream point".

Edited by Ya Mu, 30 December 2008 - 07:51 AM.


#15 rex

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:58 AM

Aleister Crowley's Twenty-Eight Theorems of Magick have a distinct clarity about them:

Twenty-Eight Theorems

Even though I admire Crowley's intellectual brilliance I bear in mind Matthew 7:16 and don't view him as a reliable or safe source of refuge.

#16 thelerner

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:11 AM

I admire Rawn Clarks writings about Franz Bardon (abardoncompanion.com). The magical system is work. Lots of self analysis. The focus is hugely on knowing, controlling and the process of perfecting oneself. Spells and whats considered magic are by far secondary, his Magician is first and foremost a complete human being.

The 'trap' is by the time you've spent the years on the first few levels the desire for power and control over people and things tends to vanish :)


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Push hard to get better, become smarter, grow your devotion to the truth, fuel your commitment to beauty, refine your emotional intelligence, hone your dreams, negotiate with your shadow, cure your ignorance, shed your pettiness, heighten your drive to look for the best in people, and soften your heart. A creed from Pronoia

Where we have stopped dancing, singing, being enchanted by stories, or finding comfort in silence is where we have experience the loss of soul. Dancing, singing, storytelling, and silence are the four universal healing salves. ~ Gabrielle Roth




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