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The "Get a Job, Have a Wife, Make a Child , Get a Life" Thread


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#1

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 01:29 AM

Hellow,

what are your thoughts on this?

what part do you think it plays in personal cultivation?

how can personal cultivation benefit from it,
and how our Life can benefit from personal cultivation?

how did your kids help you undestand more about the Tao?

how did maternal pregnancy help you figure out more about spiritual pregnancy?

there are so many questions that can be adressed, please dont be shy and make a list yourselves...

there were a lot of wise words on this.
all of the guys and girls that know what it means, please share an insight

Thank you so much

^_^

L1

Edited by Little1, 17 June 2008 - 01:39 AM.

宁 / Ning

Rambunctious much?

Warm reminder: "中国绝学不传外国人, 大家谨记, 传出去的都是些皮毛"


#2 Yoda

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:10 AM

The stronger our relationships our to family, friends, coworkers, fellow taobums, etc the more information and energy we can send and take in order to progress on the path of joy. While a certain degree of negativity is needed as grist for the mill, there's a real need for lots of grooviness and it's the task in front of us to inspire the best out of every relationship that we have.

While some will do better as pure loners, I think most cultivators will do best staying in society.

#3

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:05 PM

Thanks Yoda!

Every insight on this is priceless...

L1

宁 / Ning

Rambunctious much?

Warm reminder: "中国绝学不传外国人, 大家谨记, 传出去的都是些皮毛"


#4 mantis

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:23 PM

if you haven't mastered life how can you expect to master yourself?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold a higher esteem to those who think alike than those who think differently - Friedrich Nietzsche

#5 Smile

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 05:03 PM

If I haven't mastered myself, how can I expect to master life?
Jerry: "Oh you're crazy"
Kramer: "Am I? Or am I so sane that you just blew your mind?"
Jerry: "It's impossible"
Kramer: "Is it? Or is it so possible your head is spinning like a top?"
Jerry: "It can't be"
Kramer: "Can't it? Or is your entire world just crashing down all around you?"
My natural alternative health blog

#6 Taomeow

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 07:56 PM

And if you haven't mastered either yourself or your life... that's when the temptation to consider yourself a master is the strongest. :D

#7 shontonga

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:24 PM

And if you haven't mastered either yourself or your life... that's when the temptation to consider yourself a master is the strongest. :D


Master = control ?
LOL, :D nahhhh!!!

( taken from computer dictionary -
Master • a machine or device directly controlling another : [as adj. ] a master cylinder. Compare with slave .)



Little1

Great questions i've been thinking on all day.
Still have no answers yet?
Am on my own but those are still important to me
as elements of creation.

I have a life?
only want one at a time! No energy for more than that! would also get confusing :P

Make a child ?
... that's tricky on yer own! don't see it at this point in my life? maybe?
When i see a dark eyed dark haired boy, I want one! ... all the babes in my family are blond (basically hairless!) and blue eyed! so extra appeal for some reason? until they start crying and screaming!!! AHHHHHH! Told it's different if it's your own but ... ??? They are cute when their sleeping. I might like a sleeping child! can I order one ?

Have a wife ?
LOL. No. ... Sorry, just don't swing that way? Not my nature. but a husband ? Still don't know. Have had opportunities. But was also young. Miss having someone that I am that comfortable with. Don't need a husband. Maybe a pair of arms to wrap around and remind me things are ok sometimes though ? That would be nice. It's good to be reminded of that some times? Hard to meet someone when yer on your own.

Get a job?
Have a job, and i work a lot , and help family work a lot, think that ='s 3 jobs, only 1 pays hard cash though! Would love to not need a job so i could do all the other work I'd like to! And let work be more play!

All and all i don't know any real answers but have found myself questioning a lot again!
thank you for that. The future will let me know what it wants to do, i think?

Time for me to go and sit.
Sweet dreams all!

Shonton Ga

#8 Plastic Object

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 09:15 PM

I read somewhere that back in the old days, all who wanted to study kabbala had to be jewish men, who already had grown children, and who had proven themselves as pillars of society. Only then were they considered to have the maturity to recieve and relate to the mysteries of the kabbala. That is one tradition.

To your question, I think the job, married partner and "life" are, well all a matter of cultural conditioning, expectations and preferences. It does not matter much. The real tricky part of your question is in what ways having and taking care of children infuences one's spiritual path.

First, I'd say that children are neither necessary for nor a hindrance to achieving spiritual goals (whatever the goals are) because empirical and historical evidence shows clearly that there are many childless true masters as well as masters with children.

Second, I think most would agree that to care for someone else in an unselfish way is good for one's spiritual development. To have a child with someone, and to stay around to take care of that child no matter what, is really the most simple way to practice how to care for someone else every day (and night) for the rest of one's life.

Therefore, and third, I'd say that to commit oneself to having children and to help them to grow up, is the most basic, simple and straightforward human (or animal for that matter) way to culture the virtues of love, devotion and unselfishness. (It is btw also a good way to understand oneself and to learn more about the patterns and behaviours that one received from one's own parents.)

Lastly, I'll repeat that it seems unlikely that it is the only way, or even that it is the best way for everybody. I recall, though, a long passage in Umberto Eco's, Focault's pendulum, where the girlfriend of one of the protagonists patiently explains to her boyfriend that his search for the holy grail is just a pontless backwards metaphor, ecause her womb really is the grail, and it isn't inaccesible and far away, but right there next to him, or something like that.

#9

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 09:21 PM

Okay, thanks and do keep it coming... :)

L1

宁 / Ning

Rambunctious much?

Warm reminder: "中国绝学不传外国人, 大家谨记, 传出去的都是些皮毛"


#10 rain

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:31 PM

it does help you face cultural programming in various arenas..
with kids you are no longer the sole navel of the earth..
if sustain ever had a place...

"Reality is nothing but a collective hunch."~Jane Wagner 


#11 wenwu

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 05:22 AM

too many people look for these things i.e. a wife a child to make them feel complete

if you are not complete without them, you will never be complete with them, if fact you will be more broken becasue you will be stealing energy from them and putting them under pressure for the short comings in your life.


the is a big thing in the country that i am now that if a woman ismairried by the time she is 30 she is on the shelf. i have never seen so many unhappy marriages as the people around me now.
How can i change the world, if i can't even change myself

#12 Taomeow

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 09:56 AM

One consideration though that might be of interest to cultivators:
committed bachelors' life span is an average of ten years shorter than that of married men (regardless of whether the marriage is subjectively perceived as "happy") and five years shorter than that of men who were married but divorced. Being married seems to prolong a man's life more efficiently than any practice he may take on.

Alas, this is not true for women. Being married does nothing for our longevity. Old maidens, divorcees and happily married women still finish together, statistically speaking. However, there's other considerations of some interest. Having had no fewer than one and no more than four children prolongs a woman's life considerably. Having breastfed them cuts her chances of getting breast cancer to a fraction of what they are otherwise. Having had her first child between the ages of 18 and 23 cuts her chances of getting most other female disorders to a fraction of what they are otherwise. Looks like nature has her own answer to the question posed in the thread.

However, the world today is set up in such family-hostile, anti-child fashion that I can only commiserate with people who have the sense of the natural pull toward normalcy going strong, since everything is pitched against them, is designed to defeat them and their healthy instincts. I wouldn't blame anyone deciding to bail out of the battle for normalcy today, because it is so incredibly lost already, to so many. I guess I'm not optimistic about either option -- no use knocking down a wall only to break into the adjacent prison cell. Screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.

Do something about the world we're living in, I would tell anyone ISO a "spiritual" path. For starters, take a long hard look at it and get informed about how people are living in it and why and who has "chosen" this for them, and toward what purpose. Then of course anyone may choose to drop out -- but I would try to drop out wisely... if there is such a thing.

Edited by Taomeow, 18 June 2008 - 09:58 AM.


#13 vortex

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:22 AM

One consideration though that might be of interest to cultivators:
committed bachelors' life span is an average of ten years shorter than that of married men (regardless of whether the marriage is subjectively perceived as "happy") and five years shorter than that of men who were married but divorced. Being married seems to prolong a man's life more efficiently than any practice he may take on.

Well, the flaw in that conclusion is that correlation =/= causation.

Reality is, women now have more choice and so tend to pick healthier men to marry to begin with. The poorer, unhealthier ones get weeded out by this classist institution reserved for the bourgeoise men of society.

Marriage and longevity are just symptoms of this select group of providers.

Although, marriage itself could also conceivably reduce high-risk bachelor behaviors like partying, carousing, casual sex and thrill-seeking. And replace them with PTA conferences, workaholicism and lawn-mowing.

Meanwhile, divorce (which often goes hand-in-hand with marriage these days) can be completely financially and emotionally devastating to a man. Therefore, caveat emptor. I think that media release is very shaky at best and intentional propaganda at worst.

Don't get me wrong, I think love and relationships are GREAT. :D But, I am far less enthusiastic about legal, static frameworks for those fluid relationships.
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. - Carl Jung
The ability to see in realtime that experience is not self is called enlightenment. - Kenneth Folk
Knowledge can be taught, but skill must be practiced.
Don’t move the body – you train your Qi. Don’t move your mind – you train your Spirit. - Fong Ha
I used to sit in full-lotus even on the can but there's not a lot of space in my bathroom. - drewhempel

#14 Taomeow

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 11:25 AM

Well, the flaw in that conclusion is that correlation =/= causation.

Reality is, women now have more choice and so tend to pick healthier men to marry to begin with. The poorer, unhealthier ones get weeded out by this classist institution reserved for the bourgeoise men of society.

Marriage and longevity are just symptoms of this select group of providers.

Although, marriage itself could also conceivably reduce high-risk bachelor behaviors like partying, carousing, casual sex and thrill-seeking. And replace them with PTA conferences, workaholicism and lawn-mowing.

Meanwhile, divorce (which often goes hand-in-hand with marriage these days) can be completely financially and emotionally devastating to a man. Therefore, caveat emptor. I think that media release is very shaky at best and intentional propaganda at worst.

Don't get me wrong, I think love and relationships are GREAT. :D But, I am far less enthusiastic about legal, static frameworks for those fluid relationships.

OK, I got your point. However, I object to the "flaw" part, since it is projected and not my doing: I didn't make a peep about causation, I presented a fact, not its interpretation. The source of this fact is not the US of A where what you're talking about probably applies, but, rather, worldwide statistics that include countries where ALL men are poor and where (this part I know from living elsewhere) being in poor health has never been a serious obstacle for a male of reasonable age in finding a wife. The stigma of being unmarried is a very strong factor, chiefly reserved for women but occasionally men too, in more traditional societies, so whoever could get married, usually did.

Of course all these reasons to get married are fubar -- economic, social, legal, etc.. The main reason has been, for hundreds of thousands of years, biological: merely the fact that the human child is born absolutely immature and unprepared to fend for herself for a longer period of her life than offspring of any other species. In all species where the baby requires an extended period of care (e.g., higher primates -- five to eight years, elephants -- twelve years), the institute of marriage (without the church and the vows) naturally exists. Sometimes a marriage is a harem-like arrangement with an extended family of uncles, aunts, etc., caring for the young -- e.g., among large felines; and sometimes it is mostly, or exclusively, monogamous -- e.g., among wolves and large birds of prey. But the arrangement seems to be predicated entirely on the needs of the offspring. Sharks, snakes, frogs and any other species whose little ones are born mature enough to take care of themselves don't marry and maintain no families. I think humans today are more shark-like in their mentality, but alas not in their biology -- so children are not nurtured because adults prefer shark-like activities, but human babies are still born as dependent and needy as they did a million years ago, and everything they miss out on comes back to haunt them -- and then gets transmitted to the next generation of developmentally frustrated humans. And that's where all our troubles begin and end up, and begin and end up again.

#15 thelerner

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 11:52 AM

Marriage good, kids good, family good.

I'm in a sandwiched generation. My parents are in there 70's. They have me and my sisters to be there for them. Whatever happens, whatever illness or problem we're there for them, with love and support. They have 4 people watching out for them. Thats a powerful thing you may or may not get in your 70's and 80's from surviving friends.

You learn about love and sacrifice from your kids. You're constantly reminded about simple pleasures of play and unconditioned awareness. They give you a chance to re-experience pieces of your childhood, fly the kites again, play video games, catch, see a ball game.

They're a test of sanity but you wouldn't trade them for anything. They give meaning to life and are a reason for hope in the world.

Wives similarly. You learn love and intimacy; fight for it, surrender to it. Its nice to wake up to a warm body in your bed, too trust someone with everything.

Its not for everyone, its a hard brave choice, but the rewards are certainly there.

Michael
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#16 rain

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 11:59 AM

Marriage good, kids good, family good.

I'm in a sandwiched generation. My parents are in there 70's. They have me and my sisters to be there for them. Whatever happens, whatever illness or problem we're there for them, with love and support. They have 4 people watching out for them. Thats a powerful thing you may or may not get in your 70's and 80's from surviving friends.

You learn about love and sacrifice from your kids. You're constantly reminded about simple pleasures of play and unconditioned awareness. They give you a chance to re-experience pieces of your childhood, fly the not kites again, play video games, catch, see a ball game.

They're a test of sanity but you wouldn't trade them for anything. They give meaning to life and are a reason for hope in the world.

Wives similarly. You learn love and intimacy; fight for it, surrender to it. Its nice to wake up to a warm body in your bed, too trust someone with everything.

Its not for everyone, its a hard brave choice, but the rewards are certainly there.

Michael



my god. that´s so honest so simple and SO f* difficult.
:lol:
thank you thelerner

it is a SERIOUS matter to consider breaking with the cultural norms. you PAY socially. for years. but, you GAIN so much more. Real fiendship, pain-sustain and a REAL connection to a self you learn to know so well you are motivated to let go of.
fex.

IF you choose

not to have a "career"...

to not baptise your child god forbid,

not buying that big engagement-ring,

not inviting 170 people to your wedding..

to not marry..

to not have a children

to stay home...

not remodelling your house...

not joining another network..

throwing family silverware in the trashcan..

eat too much valium at christmas eve...

go for a real catfight

accidentaly burping in church or farting during dinner

refuse to forgive but still give into anger..



we should try it.
definitely.

Edited by rain, 18 June 2008 - 12:13 PM.

"Reality is nothing but a collective hunch."~Jane Wagner 





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