69 replies to this topic

[sean]

I've been rather lax this year with the insult policy but the last several weeks I've noticing an increase in personal attacks on the forum. Nothing over the top offensive, but still it's disruptive of the vibe and so I want to take a second to bring you back to center again and remind you that a little rowdiness is fine but stop and take a breath before zipping off another personal jab.

Here is an update of our insult policy, please read it and abide by it:

Tao bums is a moderated, privately owned, web site; all who agree with our guiding principals are welcome to join our discussions:

Treat other members with respect. No personal attacks.

Moderators are present to enforce this, please abide by their decisions.

Basically No personal attacks.

It is totally fine to vocally disagree with a person's opinion, technique, politics, approach, lifestyle choice, etc.

But no insulting (or links to attacks) of individuals, nationalities, genders, political preferences, lifestyle choices, etc.

While this may sound restrictive and categorically un-Taoist, I believe it is a useful guideline to help us stop for a moment and think about how to present our perspectives intelligently without just flinging unproductive rudeness at each other. This way other members can receive value from your perspective and you can gain clarity by reasoning out why you initially felt compelled to verbally put down someone else for being different. No one, including the originating poster, gains anything from statements like "So and so is a complete moron", etc. If you have an opinion and you believe it's relevant to a topic at hand, post it as constructively as possible so we can learn from you, debate with you, ignore you, whatever.

If you can't abide by this simple constructive guideline, either create your post in "The Pit" or expect it to be moved there. This is our mini-octagon here for those of you that insist on a more primitive breed of taoist war.

Thanks,
Sean.

Edited by Mal, 10 August 2011 - 02:56 PM.
updated

[thelerner]

Thanks for the reminder Sysop.

Michael

[sean]

Thanks for the reminder Sysop.

Michael

Oh man, that is some old school right there. Were you a fellow BBS'er?

[Stigweard]

Argument Checklist

• Is this subject worth arguing about?
• Have I gathered enough evidence to make an argument?
• Do I represent the views of my opponents in a way they would consider fair?
• Have I developed my argument logically?
• Is my use of evidence accurate?
• Have I tried to prove too much?

Rules for Fair Argument

1. Argue about something meaningful; interest and commitment to a trivial argument is unlikely. If you consistently choose to argue over trivial matters, others soon will learn to pay little attention; then, when a legitimately important issue arises, your input will have been negated.

2. Argue in the present tense; do not unnecessarily drag in the past. People who save the past for another day are "gunny- sacking," an unproductive practice. This practice only invites reciprocal behavior on the part of others which degenerates your arguments into a mud slinging exercise.

3. Argue about one event, behavior, want, need, expectation, or statement at a time; do not try to link items -- separate each one -- this is truly hard to do and it takes time; but it is a worthwhile strategy.

4. When an argument is over, agree that it's over -- done for good, never to be heard of again! Never try to reopen an old argument -- this is not only not fair, it is suicide; if you allow one old argument to be restarted, then your adversary is free to open others too. This cycle never ends!

5. Finish each argument you start -- do not leave an argument in mid-stream. Leaving an argument unfinished leaves parties vulnerable to it being reopened at a most inopportune time, place, and manner.

6. Argue without the aid of coaching, without employing allies. Otherwise, your arguments become "team" efforts. Such teams tend to grow and eventually you are just a pawn.

7. Argue honestly -- make no false or misleading claims, use no phony evidence, nor employ exaggerations.

8. Find a time when all parties are calm, available, and willing to argue -- some delay is OK to calm emotions, but not an elongated or manipulative delay.

9. Argue face-to-face; using phone calls, memos, letters, or third parties is not ethical nor are these tactics usually effective.

10. Avoid cheap-shot emotional tugs (ie: crying, shouting, threatening others, threatening suicide, and name-calling).

11. Keep your talk personalized (ie: use "I," "me," "my," "mine" not "you," "they," "them," "everyone,").

12. Keep argument subtopics relevant -- do not get sidetracked or try to change the subject.

13. Do not monopolize the argument; give others a chance to be an equal part.

14. Do not play guilt trips with the other party.

15. Directly respond to accusations; do not minimize, catastr ophize, or ignore them.

16. Describe, don't express emotions during the argument; if you cannot control yourself emotionally, call a time-out.

17. Claim and admit to your own feelings -- do not generalize or externalize them.

18. Label inferences as just that -- inferences are not facts, observations, or experiences; they are guesses, no matter how skilled.

19. Supply open, complete, and honest support for the claims that you make -- do not be evasive, coy, or "fuzzy" about what you mean.

20. Don't argue about everything. If everything is subject to a fight, then there is no real priority for the really important occurrences.

21. Do not start another argument right after one is over. This is not fair nor is it productive. It is likely to produce resentment.

22. Do not gloat over a victory or catastrophize a loss. Your behavior in other arguments is bound to influence how open and honest others are with you in future arguments.

23. Do not belabor points; when a point is made, agree on that and go on to the next point.

24. Avoid negatively charged and personally attacking terms (ie: fool, idiot, stupid, lazy, weird, crazy, ass-hole, free-loader, etc.)

25. Keep your language as clear, concrete, specific, and neutral as you can. If your adversary fails to do this, ask for clarification.

[mYTHmAKER]

Argument Checklist

• Is this subject worth arguing about?
• Have I gathered enough evidence to make an argument?
• Do I represent the views of my opponents in a way they would consider fair?
• Have I developed my argument logically?
• Is my use of evidence accurate?
• Have I tried to prove too much?

Rules for Fair Argument

1. Argue about something meaningful; interest and commitment to a trivial argument is unlikely. If you consistently choose to argue over trivial matters, others soon will learn to pay little attention; then, when a legitimately important issue arises, your input will have been negated.

2. Argue in the present tense; do not unnecessarily drag in the past. People who save the past for another day are "gunny- sacking," an unproductive practice. This practice only invites reciprocal behavior on the part of others which degenerates your arguments into a mud slinging exercise.

3. Argue about one event, behavior, want, need, expectation, or statement at a time; do not try to link items -- separate each one -- this is truly hard to do and it takes time; but it is a worthwhile strategy.

4. When an argument is over, agree that it's over -- done for good, never to be heard of again! Never try to reopen an old argument -- this is not only not fair, it is suicide; if you allow one old argument to be restarted, then your adversary is free to open others too. This cycle never ends!

5. Finish each argument you start -- do not leave an argument in mid-stream. Leaving an argument unfinished leaves parties vulnerable to it being reopened at a most inopportune time, place, and manner.

6. Argue without the aid of coaching, without employing allies. Otherwise, your arguments become "team" efforts. Such teams tend to grow and eventually you are just a pawn.

7. Argue honestly -- make no false or misleading claims, use no phony evidence, nor employ exaggerations.

8. Find a time when all parties are calm, available, and willing to argue -- some delay is OK to calm emotions, but not an elongated or manipulative delay.

9. Argue face-to-face; using phone calls, memos, letters, or third parties is not ethical nor are these tactics usually effective.

10. Avoid cheap-shot emotional tugs (ie: crying, shouting, threatening others, threatening suicide, and name-calling).

11. Keep your talk personalized (ie: use "I," "me," "my," "mine" not "you," "they," "them," "everyone,").

12. Keep argument subtopics relevant -- do not get sidetracked or try to change the subject.

13. Do not monopolize the argument; give others a chance to be an equal part.

14. Do not play guilt trips with the other party.

15. Directly respond to accusations; do not minimize, catastr ophize, or ignore them.

16. Describe, don't express emotions during the argument; if you cannot control yourself emotionally, call a time-out.

17. Claim and admit to your own feelings -- do not generalize or externalize them.

18. Label inferences as just that -- inferences are not facts, observations, or experiences; they are guesses, no matter how skilled.

19. Supply open, complete, and honest support for the claims that you make -- do not be evasive, coy, or "fuzzy" about what you mean.

20. Don't argue about everything. If everything is subject to a fight, then there is no real priority for the really important occurrences.

21. Do not start another argument right after one is over. This is not fair nor is it productive. It is likely to produce resentment.

22. Do not gloat over a victory or catastrophize a loss. Your behavior in other arguments is bound to influence how open and honest others are with you in future arguments.

23. Do not belabor points; when a point is made, agree on that and go on to the next point.

24. Avoid negatively charged and personally attacking terms (ie: fool, idiot, stupid, lazy, weird, crazy, ass-hole, free-loader, etc.)

25. Keep your language as clear, concrete, specific, and neutral as you can. If your adversary fails to do this, ask for clarification.

I prefer discuss, point of view, opinion, my understanding, the way I was taught, my impression, rather than argue.

[Stigweard]

I prefer discuss, point of view, opinion, my understanding, the way I was taught, my impression, rather than argue.

I'm with you. However, when things get to the point of an arguement some rules of engagement are beneficial.

[VeeCee]

[bump]

I know Sean posted this fairly recently. I'm just putting it out there as a gentle remininder that it is possible to discuss our differences without devolving into insults.

Peace,

V.

[prince K.]

sorry I hope insults "in toto" (as a whole like: you are all ignorant fools) is ok...if not let me know.

all the best K.

[thelerner]

sorry I hope insults "in toto" (as a whole like: you are all ignorant fools) is ok...if not let me know.

all the best K.

I'd stay away from insulting Toto. Sean likes dogs and is very fond of 'The Wizard of Oz"

Gaaziiing


If you must insult Toto, its probably better to do it as a whole (though not the ass kind) and
say it like: ( we are all ignorant fools ) Which is undoubtedly closer to the Truth.


My two cents


Michael

We must all strive to be humble. You may be a prince, but you still 11th in line.





















Cause A through J outrank you.

[Water]

Hello,

I am still finding my way on this forum, so please excuse me if I have posted this in the wrong place, but I find this (as a topic) to be most interesting...

Now, in truth, I do not subscribe to Taoist philosophy (only because I have never studied it), so I will no doubt lack the finesse and semantic eloquence that a lot of the folks on here have as their stock-in-trade, and as such, I will seek your forgiveness and understanding from the outset... Mine is a different nomenclature...

On the concept of insults though, what do the Taoist texts say? Is there a mention of 'conduct unbecoming' in your texts? I am genuinely interested...

My personal background has taught that in order to be insulted, there must first be insult within myself: The only reason the Universe exists is because the Innerverse exists.

By extrapolation, everything is pure to the pure of heart... Such a heart is polished smooth and shiny by spiritual practice and steady emptying of the cup of ego, and insults themselves find no purchase to take root, no crevices harbouring malice or the ego-driven need to feel justified in self righteous acts against other parts of (what is, ultimately) ourselves.

In fact, the Self, enduring and largely uninterested in the silly games of 'Mine and Thine' is at peace with All That Is, because in that space where the boundary between 'my self' and the rest of the universe blurs to the point where there is in fact no clear demarcation between the two, we can but plead very deeply to being one with all that is.

The two halves, the insulter and the insulted, are one in the same, in a divine dance of self realisation. But, without the realisation that they are One, in the consciousness of separateness that is the eternal dance of Yin and Yang, there will be dispute and insult, and the key cause for the insult (the golden kernel of truth inside the dark swirling of the uncomfortableness of the situation) will be lost on the two players, and egos will be tattered and torn in the process... (itself a part of the process???)

In short - it will be a waste of a good lesson...

Unfortunately, if one is of the view that 'I am right, and you are wrong...', no such lesson can be had. In this, the question lies in the concept of Who it is that is feeling insulted? What part of your endless and eternal nature requires you to push home this point?

If this is lost on the individuals in question, because they are operating from ego rather than their True Selves, then hurt will be sustained by one, and a sense of justification felt within the other. Both are ego states, and both exist only in order that they may be transcended, and the Yin be resolved into the Yang (or vice versa)... Other than that they have no real eternal reference point.

To put it another way: Which is more important: The in-breath, the out-breath, or the that which is breathing?

Externally, dispute between the two; the in breath and the out breath, the insulter and the insulted, invites a resolution of the two energies... as per Newton's third law of motion. But with the light of consciousness shone inwards for a moment, what is the lesson in this for me? This is the transcendent third - the enlightened Po...

Planet Earth, with its widely varied forms of duplicity exists with only one view in mind: To seek resolution of the Swirlings of polarities of polar opposites in order to illuminate the truth of the Nature of Self. It serves no other purpose...

Life, is a game played by one...

[Stigweard]

No lack of finesse or semantic eloquence there my friend. Well posted!

[dogenzn]

Argument Checklist

• Is this subject worth arguing about?
• Have I gathered enough evidence to make an argument?
• Do I represent the views of my opponents in a way they would consider fair?
• Have I developed my argument logically?
• Is my use of evidence accurate?
• Have I tried to prove too much?

Rules for Fair Argument

1. Argue about something meaningful; interest and commitment to a trivial argument is unlikely. If you consistently choose to argue over trivial matters, others soon will learn to pay little attention; then, when a legitimately important issue arises, your input will have been negated.

2. Argue in the present tense; do not unnecessarily drag in the past. People who save the past for another day are "gunny- sacking," an unproductive practice. This practice only invites reciprocal behavior on the part of others which degenerates your arguments into a mud slinging exercise.

3. Argue about one event, behavior, want, need, expectation, or statement at a time; do not try to link items -- separate each one -- this is truly hard to do and it takes time; but it is a worthwhile strategy.

4. When an argument is over, agree that it's over -- done for good, never to be heard of again! Never try to reopen an old argument -- this is not only not fair, it is suicide; if you allow one old argument to be restarted, then your adversary is free to open others too. This cycle never ends!

5. Finish each argument you start -- do not leave an argument in mid-stream. Leaving an argument unfinished leaves parties vulnerable to it being reopened at a most inopportune time, place, and manner.

6. Argue without the aid of coaching, without employing allies. Otherwise, your arguments become "team" efforts. Such teams tend to grow and eventually you are just a pawn.

7. Argue honestly -- make no false or misleading claims, use no phony evidence, nor employ exaggerations.

8. Find a time when all parties are calm, available, and willing to argue -- some delay is OK to calm emotions, but not an elongated or manipulative delay.

9. Argue face-to-face; using phone calls, memos, letters, or third parties is not ethical nor are these tactics usually effective.

10. Avoid cheap-shot emotional tugs (ie: crying, shouting, threatening others, threatening suicide, and name-calling).

11. Keep your talk personalized (ie: use "I," "me," "my," "mine" not "you," "they," "them," "everyone,").

12. Keep argument subtopics relevant -- do not get sidetracked or try to change the subject.

13. Do not monopolize the argument; give others a chance to be an equal part.

14. Do not play guilt trips with the other party.

15. Directly respond to accusations; do not minimize, catastr ophize, or ignore them.

16. Describe, don't express emotions during the argument; if you cannot control yourself emotionally, call a time-out.

17. Claim and admit to your own feelings -- do not generalize or externalize them.

18. Label inferences as just that -- inferences are not facts, observations, or experiences; they are guesses, no matter how skilled.

19. Supply open, complete, and honest support for the claims that you make -- do not be evasive, coy, or "fuzzy" about what you mean.

20. Don't argue about everything. If everything is subject to a fight, then there is no real priority for the really important occurrences.

21. Do not start another argument right after one is over. This is not fair nor is it productive. It is likely to produce resentment.

22. Do not gloat over a victory or catastrophize a loss. Your behavior in other arguments is bound to influence how open and honest others are with you in future arguments.

23. Do not belabor points; when a point is made, agree on that and go on to the next point.

24. Avoid negatively charged and personally attacking terms (ie: fool, idiot, stupid, lazy, weird, crazy, ass-hole, free-loader, etc.)

25. Keep your language as clear, concrete, specific, and neutral as you can. If your adversary fails to do this, ask for clarification.

Well this is very good advice: and, for those of us with short term memory issues; by the time we review it we will have forgotten whatever nasty thing we were going to say anyway !

[Stigweard]

Well this is very good advice: and, for those of us with short term memory issues; by the time we review it we will have forgotten whatever nasty thing we were going to say anyway !

LOL well if that is it's only purpose than it is a purpose well fulfilled

[steve]

Stig -
Nice post. Have you ever read Choosing Civility by PM Forni?
An excellent book!

[Stigweard]

Stig -
Nice post. Have you ever read Choosing Civility by PM Forni?
An excellent book!

Thanks for the recommendation Steve ... have added it to my Amazon Wishlist

[Stigweard]

How to win friends and influence people.
Dale Carnegie.

Part One ~ Fundamental Techniques
1. Don't critcize condemn or complain.
2. Give honest and sincere appreciation.
3. Arouse in the other person an eager want.

Part Two ~ Six ways to make people like you.
1. Become genuinely interested in other people.
2. Smile.
3. Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
4. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
5. Talk in terms of the other person's interests.
6. Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.

Part Three ~ How to win people to your way of thinking.
1. The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
2. Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say, "You are wrong."
3. If you are wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
4. Begin in a friendly way.
5. Get the other person saying, "yes, yes" immediately.
6. Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
7. Let the other person feel that the idea is his or hers.
8. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
9. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10. Appeal to the nobler motives.
11. Dramatize your ideas.
12. Throw down a challenge.

Part Four ~ Be a leader.
1. Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
2. Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
3. Talk about your own mistakes before critcizing the other person.
4. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
5. Let the person save face.
6. Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be "hearty in your approbation and lavish on your praise."
7. Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
8. Use encouragement. Make the fault easy to correct.
9. Make the other person happy about doing the thing you want.