sillybearhappyhoneyeater

holistic philosophy, inclusive practice

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I want to create a discussion with people here to further our mutual undersatnding of Daoism.

In this thread, lets look at the holisism idea of Daoism and talk about how Daoism can be used in various ways.

I'll start,

 

i use the mindset of

慈,儉,不敢為天下先。

kindness, frugality, and not being brave before the world

 

in order to conduct social engagements.

I try to keep in mind that people need to be treated with respect and love, even if I disagree with them. I should avoid sharing too many of my thoughts with people in order to avoid social confrontations. I'm not brave enough to put myself ahead of others in my own estimation, because I worry that they will also have this in mind when they view me.

 

I also use it as a method of meditation,

for instance:

kindness can be conveyed as an internal feeling of benevolance and positivity,

frugality can be viewed as taking the root of actions from non action,

and not being brave before the world can be the practice of holding oneself within, not letting the energy leak out in the form of distracting thoughts during practice.

 

If you get the shape of the thread, please post your own ideas and experiences and we can all get benefit from each other!!! ^_^

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Ah!, the Three Treasures of the Taoist Sage.

 

Yes, much to talk about here.

 

In my mind I have simplified the third one to "Humility".

 

Compassion includes being compassionate toward ourself as well. I think that many miss this point.

 

Frugality is no challenge for me; I have always been conservative, especially with the material things in my life.

 

Humility? Sure, I still could use improvement there but then being humble can easily be over-done and this presents an invitation for others to take advantage of us. And this links back to compassion too. For many, a person of compassion is considered an easy mark for those who intentionally take advantage of others.

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so then the empty vessel analogy begins to be of use, doesn't it?

in that way, our person has nothing appearing to be worthy of taking advantage of,

and so the kindness one expresses is a reflection of calm within, as opposed to the nervous compassion of a good but weak heart.

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上善若水 The highest good is like water

 

化莫大唬不智足 No turmoil is greater than not knowing what is enough

 

天下皆知美之為美斯惡已 When beauty is recognised as beauty, ugliness is also born

 

 

These were the first to come to mind.

 

1. Be like water. Striving rarely achieves anything, though there is a time for force (tsunami?); if at first you don't succeed, go around and find another way (river flowing around the mountain), or try again and again (ocean eroding the shore), or simply hover into the sky and see the world as a cloud.

 

2. I've always, like MH, been frugal, and so chapter 46 certainly speaks to me. I know so many people who always want more -- more and tastier food, the newest tech, more and better sex(ual partners), etc etc. There is a point at which one must say, "I'm satisfied, and if I'm not, I never will be"

 

3. I see both beauty and ugliness. I'm human, so I don't think there's any way around perceiving things subjectively. And that's one of the great things about being human -- appreciation of beauty, happiness, "goodness" etc.

But realising that these things only exist in relation to their opposites is helpful in mitigating the sadness and horror felt at seeing the ugly and bad things in life. Happiness only exists with sadness. Life only exists with death.

Edited by dustybeijing

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1. I used to have problems with the water concept and this was sad because water is a very important symbol in Taoism. But, you know, water isn't always sitting around becoming stagnate. Sometime that water expresses great force, as you mentioned. Being like water also includes getting where you need to go regardless of the route you must take.

 

2. I had no problem with that. In fact, it was what allowed me to retire early. I knew I had enough.

 

3 Yeah, we are talking about that right now in another thread. Something that has helped me a lot with the concept of duality is my using the concept of useful/useless (to me) whenever possible. That way i can go about my life without making so many value judgements on things but only refer to them as to how they apply to me. These things will apply to others in various ways. What is useless to me may be very useful to someone else.

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Somethimes humility doesn't look like it. When you demonstrate a skill at work or in difficult situations with people, it is often made light of by the act being described as showing off or gaining some benefit for blatantly self interested reasons.

And many times that is the last word; There is an exchange that is recognized and appreciated between people but it is not called out as such and is just there. One of the things that happens. That can be a beautiful thing.

On the other hand, there are times when one has to very clearly let go of some claim or assumption of special regard.

In both expressions, timing and sensitivity to what is happening are essential.

Humility is a lot more than a good intention.

It is an ability, learned over a long time, after many hard lessons.

I wish I had started earlier.

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I'm all for respect, even kindness. Loving others.. not so much. Imo that's going a little too far, its not honest and cheapens the word. Because I simply don't have that level of emotional commitment for a stranger. Respect and kindness I can manage, at least on my good days.

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I'm all for respect, even kindness. Loving others.. not so much.

 

Is this coming from the OP's comment "people need to be treated with respect and love" ?

 

 

Imo that's going a little too far, its not honest and cheapens the word.

 

What about when it is honest? There are people who genuinely feel love for others.

 

What about about treating people with kindness? Isn't that a kind of love?

 

And showing a little of the love that you feel for being alive, because they are also alive, and you're sharing this experience..?

 

The level of love we can show clearly varies very much from person to person. I'm not good at showing emotion, whether positive or negative, but there are people who genuinely love other people and are able to show it. I have realized and forgotten many times in my life that a smile and a nod, even when you're having a shitty day, even to someone who's not smiling back at first.... can make you and that person feel a little better. I'd say I do that out of love.

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just as you said, beauty becomes ugly and good becomes bad,

love and hate are relative - just like my aunt and uncle - i love them because they have tasty food and make really decent cakes, but i hate them because they judge my strange ways...

bam!

daoism in action everywhere.

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1. I used to have problems with the water concept and this was sad because water is a very important symbol in Taoism. But, you know, water isn't always sitting around becoming stagnate. Sometime that water expresses great force, as you mentioned. Being like water also includes getting where you need to go regardless of the route you must take.

 

Thanks, I like that last sentence. Though understanding where we "need to go" may sometimes be tricky. Water follows the path of least resistance, always. Where water needs to go is ever without choice, while where humans need to go is oft managed by desire. Many of us cling to various desires and defend them at all cost when they flow into clashing scenarios.

 

When it is hot, water evaporates and rises; when it is cold water condenses and falls. When flowing as a river, at times smooth, at times crashing from rock to rock between canyon walls or falling from heights and crashing thunderously below. When at sea, blowing with the winds, sometimes conditions creating powerful storms and mountainous waves, yet all through simply responding without motive to properly balance whatever conditions are present.

 

Even when clashing, water is ever nourishing. The rapids and falls create incredible fields of refined qi. Storms are the communion between the land and the sea, two incredibly different paradigms. Storms bring great change to the edge between land and sea, leading those who live in these areas to adapt and evolve.

 

To me this is a lesson in how to temper and refine our selves by treating whatever is in front of us as right. Just as water carries minerals and tiny life forms, our true selves are a blend of the various desires and needs we've identified with. These needs alter the composition and shape of us, and change how we flow through life. When we are challenged by life it sometimes feels as though we are being shattered apart and put back together, and sometimes we chose to let go of desires which we come to realize no longer serve our current path, and emerge from the clash with greater refinement.

 

When we stumble into a situation we can tell will build into a storm, perhaps it is important to reflect on if the storm is brewing based on who we really are, or based from a desire we hold, like political affiliation. In the end it is up to us to decide what is important - for some taking political sides and participating in the resulting storms and refinement of political issues is readily justifiable.

 

And yet the TTC also speaks of non-contention, of giving in early so as to slip past the dynamic where what was built up must be defended to avoid being brought down.

 

As we shed the layers of desire and defence of desire, flowing like water we are led to ever greater refinement, the clashing situations stemming more from past life patterns, or manifesting as situations where our force of refinement is simply used as the situation calls for it, not arising from the defence of something within we find to be threatened, but simply the unfolding of conditions synchronistically resulting in a powerful unfolding of change; change that is unassailable and has nothing to defend, no concern for how its power reaches balance. Just as a hurricane rumbling to shore, happily dissipating and returning to harmonious balance.

 

I suppose my point is the distinction of getting where you need to go either being the result of desire, leading to win or lose situations - or the result of acceptance, leading to situations of non-contrived refinement and return to greater balance.

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Is this coming from the OP's comment "people need to be treated with respect and love" ?

 

 

 

What about when it is honest? There are people who genuinely feel love for others.

 

What about about treating people with kindness? Isn't that a kind of love?

 

And showing a little of the love that you feel for being alive, because they are also alive, and you're sharing this experience..?

 

The level of love we can show clearly varies very much from person to person. I'm not good at showing emotion, whether positive or negative, but there are people who genuinely love other people and are able to show it. I have realized and forgotten many times in my life that a smile and a nod, even when you're having a shitty day, even to someone who's not smiling back at first.... can make you and that person feel a little better. I'd say I do that out of love.

When (love) its honest, its great. A smile and kind word is a necessity this world, and that level of being doesn't require 'love'. I've seen people who live out 'love all others', its a hard but saintly path. Cause some people would suck the life out of you. Not to mention a crushing apathy the world often reflects.

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I suppose my point is the distinction of getting where you need to go either being the result of desire, leading to win or lose situations - or the result of acceptance, leading to situations of non-contrived refinement and return to greater balance.

Well, one thing for sure, you went really deep into the water.

 

Rather good post, I think.

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i have always felt that the greatest good is like water quote simply ties to the next part which is "water stays with all things and never fights," or more to the point, water does not act for its own benefit, but it can go anywhere it wants - just by its own nature.

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i have always felt that the greatest good is like water quote simply ties to the next part which is "water stays with all things and never fights," or more to the point, water does not act for its own benefit, but it can go anywhere it wants - just by its own nature.

Yeah, you could go a lot deeper with that thought too.

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