Spirituality has to go

[beyonder]

Also, how old spiritual philosophy is obsolete

btw beyounder, that is why we have imdb http://www.imdb.com/list/ls000000906/

Those movies have nothing to do with pyrrhonic or academic scepticism:

 

"Scepticism is an ability, or mental attitude, which opposes appearances to judgements in any way whatsoever, with the result that, owing to the equipollence of the objects and reasons thus opposed, we are brought firstly to a state of mental suspense and next to a state of "unperturbedness" or quietude. Now we call it an "ability" not in any subtle sense, but simply in respect of its "being able." By "appearances" we now mean the objects of sense-perception, whence we contrast them with the objects of thought or "judgements." The phrase "in any way whatsoever" can be connected either with the word "ability," to make us take the word "ability," as we said, in its simple sense, or with the phrase "opposing appearances to judgements"; for inasmuch as we oppose these in a variety of ways – appearances to appearances, or judgements to judgements, or alternando appearances to judgements, -- in order to ensure the inclusion of all these antitheses we employ the phrase "in any way whatsoever." Or, again, we join "in any way whatsoever" to "appearances and judgements" in order that we may not have to inquire how the appearances appear or how the thought-objects are judged, but may take these terms in the simple sense. The phrase "opposed judgements" we do not employ in the sense of negations and affirmations only but simply as equivalent to "conflicting judgements." "Equipollence" we use of equality in respect of probability and improbability, to indicate that no one of the conflicting judgements takes precedence of any other as being more probable. "Suspense" is a state of mental rest owing to which we neither deny nor affirm anything. "Quietude" is an untroubled and tranquil condition of soul. And how quietude enters the soul along with suspension of judgement we shall explain in our chapter (XII.) "Concerning the End."

 

-Sextus Empiricus, "Outlines of Pyrrhonism", chapter 4.

 

"Our next subject will be the end of the Sceptic system. Now an "end" is "that for which all actions or reasonings are undertaken, while it exists for the sake of none"; or, otherwise, "the ultimate object of appentency." We assert still that the Sceptic's End is quietude in respect of matters of opinion and moderate feeling in respect of things unavoidable. For the skeptic, having set out to philosophize with the object of passing judgment on the sense impressions and ascertaining which of them are true and which false, so as to attain quietude thereby, found himself involved in contradictions of equal weight, and being unable to decide between them suspended judgment; and as he was thus in suspense there followed, as it happened, the state of quietude in respect of matters of opinion. For the man who opines that anything is by nature good or bad is for ever being disquieted: when he is without the things which he deems good he believes himself to be tormented by things naturally bad and he pursues after the things which are, as he thinks, good; which when he has obtained he keeps falling into still more perturbations because of his irrational and immoderate elation, and in his dread of a change of fortune he uses every endeavor to avoid losing the things which he deems good. On the other hand, the man who determines nothing as to what is naturally good or bad neither shuns nor pursues anything eagerly; and, in consequence, he is unperturbed."

 

-Ibid. Chapter 12

Ancient knowledge that is thought of as being valuable has stopped being special.

What are you trying to say, here? That ideas which are thought of as "valuable" "stopped being special"? That's epistemological word salad. Both the concepts "knowledge" and "value" (within this context) imply a value judgement over and above "baseline" ideas/information. Claiming they aren't "special" in some way is either equivocating or an outright contradictio in terminis.

It is common knowledge in the modern world thanks to the way we learn things.

Well, your giving me a list of supposed "sceptical" movies actually proves my point on how the trickled down concepts have become so watered down as to become unrecognisable to anyone familiar with the actual source material.

We learn through stories, and stories are a human experience. Stories were told, they were written, now they are absorbed through movies and series.

We don't exclusively learn through stories, and a vast number of stories aren't even didactic in nature.

That's where the knowledge is, in the experiences of real and imaginary people.

Except that imaginary people live in an imaginary world; both where dreamed up by the author. And both where vehicles for the views of the author, if he or she bothered to move one forward in the first place.

TTC tries to convey wu wei while Forrest Gump lives it. Everyone else would be over-thinking things while to Forrest, they just happen.

... while to Forrest, the author just made it happen.

[Brian]

"Imaginary" as in the square-root of -1?

[dust]

come on, wonderment? Seriously? a state of awed admiration or respect

That's not what books are written about and people scammed out of their money

 

So everything non-science is religion, and spirituality is personalized religion? And this is nothing more than people scamming others by trying to sell books with unfounded claims?

 

You're the one choosing to define it as such.

 

If this is how you define and see spirituality, I understand why you don't want it. But this is not what it is to me. To me, the scam artists (and as far as I can tell, guys like Chia are nothing more than that) are not what it's all about. (Just for a moment assuming that there was one man called Laozi:) Laozi hasn't tried selling me anything. Buddha hasn't tried selling me anything.

 

What's wrong with wonderment? I have an immense sense of admiration for existence, for myself and everything around me. And it's the so-called spiritual teachings and musings of Laozi, Gautama, Watts, and others that have informed my wonder. Also science, to an extent. I see no reason to disregard anything that helps us to appreciate life.

[beyonder]

"Imaginary" as in the square-root of -1?

Not according to Meinongs ontology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexius_Meinong#Types_of_objects

 

Edited October 10, 2014 by beyonder

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yeah, I'm following the profits alright. Deepak Chopra, Mantak Chia, John Chang, the list goes on

COME OUT YOU BASTARDS AND FACE MY SCIENCE!!!

 

that should be on a shirt

 

There's missing the point, then there's deliberately finding examples that also missed the point and insisting that it disproves the point.

 

 

Spirituality is emptiness; seeking the insubstatnial, contemplating nothingness.

 

 

It is in substantial material that we find suffering; in insubstantial emptiness that we find solace.

 

Science and technology can advance all they want, but they will never provide emptiness - spirituality - or solace.

Science and technology are materialistically and physically useful, but they are nothing without the mental and intellectual benefit of spirituality/emptiness.

 

your cup appears to be overflowing, protector.

[C T]

I see no reason to disregard anything that helps us to appreciate life.

As Carl Sagan said, "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."

[Protector]

Four versions of spirituality so far, any more? It's like it can be whatever you want as long as no one is looking, but when someone is an authority in it and everyone else believes in it, it becomes an orthodoxy, or even better, a religion. Man, no wonder Buddha didn't want what he said to be written down. He just used to be some shmuk until his spiritual journey became a basis for a religion.

 

Beyounder, imagine you have the privilege of learning from a great master. He lives in a far away country, so you travel there. He lives on top of a mountain, so you climb it. He wants to test your dedication, so you let him. After your long journey he finally reveals to you, "Treat other as you want to be treated yourself..."

That's so pointless that I would want to punch him, but the irony would kill me, or at least hurt.

[Infinity]

Four versions of spirituality so far, any more? It's like it can be whatever you want as long as no one is looking...

 

If there are so many versions / definitions of spirituality how can a statement such as 'Spirituality has to go' have any meaning?

 

What specifically has to go? Belief? Have you seen an atom actually or do you believe in it? What is your point?

 

∞

Edited October 10, 2014 by Infinity

[dust]

There are surely more than 4 versions. I'd guess...as many versions as there are people?

 

How many versions would you like to limit it to?

 

How many versions are there of H₂O?

How many personal versions are there of art? Or what it is to be human?

How long is a piece of string?

 

 

What specifically has to go? Belief? Have you seen an atom actually or do you believe in it? What is your point?

 

His point seems to be to try and shit on the beliefs/experiences/lifestyles of the people who frequent this forum..

 

I appreciate the attempt, I guess.

[beyonder]

Beyounder, imagine you have the privilege of learning from a great master. He lives in a far away country, so you travel there. He lives on top of a mountain, so you climb it. He wants to test your dedication, so you let him. After your long journey he finally reveals to you, "Treat other as you want to be treated yourself..."

That's so pointless that I would want to punch him, but the irony would kill me, or at least hurt.

We where talking about the value of classical philosophy, not "spirituality". You where discussing that with the others.

[Infinity]

I am borrowing this from "Silent Thunders' signature. Which I think sums up my position.

 

'Everything I Love and Everything I Hate, come from the Same Source.'

I think its impossible to deny spirit and only want the physical concrete provable 'scientific'? Its a non argument! You cannot have one without the other. Yin Yang.

I am signing off!

∞

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Emptiness.
Nothingness.
Void.
Extreme Yin.

[Protector]

There are surely more than 4 versions. I'd guess...as many versions as there are people?

 

How many versions would you like to limit it to?

 

How many versions are there of H₂O?

How many personal versions are there of art? Or what it is to be human?

How long is a piece of string?

 

Emptiness.

Nothingness.

Void.

Extreme Yin.

 

Am I the only one seeing this?

 

 

The infinite possible versions support the idea that my version is the superior one

If just wonderment is acceptable as an example of spirituality, then how good a sandwich tastes like should, too.

My list is simply everything that is yin. Things that are not based in reality that lead to magical thinking and suspension of reason. Magic becomes more acceptable and things like astrology and such become legitimized. Questions about astrology actually pop around here, even though it doesn't work or should work in any way.

When religion is gone, spirituality will take its place as the next dangerous thing.

 

His point seems to be to try and shit on the beliefs/experiences/lifestyles of the people who frequent this forum..

 

I appreciate the attempt, I guess.

 

Emptiness.

Nothingness.

Void.

Extreme Yin.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Protector

[dust]

The infinite possible versions support the idea that my version is the superior one

 

I don't know what this means.

 

The possibilities are as infinite as the people who make them. Spirituality, like art and science and politics and ethics and running marathons, is a purely human thing, so how could it be anything other than personal?

 

 

If just wonderment is acceptable as an example of spirituality, then how good a sandwich tastes like should, too.

 

Yes.

 

Yes, yes. You've got it. Now move on?

 

 

I'm pretty sure....yep, yep. I did. I quoted Alan Watts in my first post:

 

"Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes."

 

This was my original point. Spirituality doesn't have to be anything more than the taste of a sandwich. That..is...all.....

Edited October 10, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Infinity]

 

If just wonderment is acceptable as an example of spirituality, then how good a sandwich tastes like should, too.

My list is simply everything that is yin. Things that are not based in reality that lead to magical thinking and suspension of reason. Magic becomes more acceptable and things like astrology and such become legitimized. Questions about astrology actually pop around here, even though it doesn't work or should work in any way.

When religion is gone, spirituality will take its place as the next dangerous thing.

 

Hi again had my shower and am back :-)

 

I was just thinking this (sort of ) everything is spiritual, energetic I feel it! Eating a sandwich too ha ha. But that is not belief and unbelievable it's just true for me. My SFQ and other practices are making me buzz and I feel sometimes as though I am 'breaking apart' and energy / spirit is flowing through me, is that spiritual is that ok or does that have to go?

 

My list is simply everything that is yin. Things that are not based in reality that lead to magical thinking and suspension of reason.

 

Is yin based in reality? Does only yang exist? Only words really anyway right!?

 

Is it not reasonable and rational to agree that we all see the world differently because we hold different beliefs and think different thoughts? From that it is reasonable to deduce that the thoughts we think are not actual 'reality'? And from that we can deduce that the the suspension of thought is a very reasonable thing to do if we want to see reality.

 

If you do this then tell me if we should get rid of spirituality? But only if you feel this is reasonable?

 

Right time for some SFQ and FFS

.

 

All my absolute best to you!

 

Love

 

∞

 

 

[Protector]

I don't know what this means.

 

The possibilities are as infinite as the people who make them. Spirituality, like art and science and politics and ethics and running marathons, is a purely human thing, so how could it be anything other than personal?

 

I explained already about how for an individual it's spirituality and for many people it's a religion yada yada come on already

 

I'm pretty sure....yep, yep. I did. I quoted Alan Watts in my first post:

 

"Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes."

 

This was my original point. Spirituality doesn't have to be anything more than the taste of a sandwich. That..is...all.....

 

Do I really have explain what Zen is to someone who doesn't understand what spirituality means. The definition of spirituality cannot be whatever you want it to be. If spirituality is actually so shallow as it can be whatever you want it to be, then I don't need to explain why it's so useless. It's self-defeating, and silly.

Actually, Allan Watts should be on my list, too. Oh wait.

It's a new type of vicious cycle, not Zen at all. Instead of worrying about something then worrying about worrying and then worrying about worrying, in spiritual vicious cycle you wonder about how spiritual a sandwich is then wonder about wondering and wonder on wonder with wonder.

Sorry, Infinity lol

We can't just BE we have so see spirituality in everything, with a trained enough mind, spirituality is the same as someone who is stuck in worrying loop, but it's not because they don't want to but because it's like drugs. The effects wear off and you are left with nothing, but you want more. Spiritual pursuits are like a hunt for more and more wonder, but it's all an illusion. Just be, that's Zen.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Protector

[C T]

You know, i was just pondering there... science and spirituality both have certain benchmarks -- both are dependent on reproducibility of results to substantiate findings -- while science's options at that seems to be shrinking all the time, the reproducibility of results from practices such as meditation, qigong, and prayer are exponentially on the up.

 

It appears that science is gradually losing its grip and unable to cope with the speed of exposures in areas such as physical diseases (especially in the field of oncology) and climatic control -- these are spiralling out of sync so rapidly that duplicating experiments in those fields of research seems to be yielding more and more mysterious and unpredictable factors, whereas spiritual quests thrive on that very mystery itself. So its not just wonderment, but the mysterious nature driving it that highlights the endless possibilities for the development of spirit.

 

 

As a side observation, OP... you started this topic on a pretty sure footing, but seems to have gone downhill since. Your last post, for example, did not have the same sort of clarity and conviction as the first one. Time to rethink your strategy perhaps.

[dust]

Do I really have explain what Zen is to someone who doesn't understand what spirituality means.

 

Could you explain Zen? Better than, for example, Alan Watts?

 

Please, go ahead. Enlighten me.

 

 

The definition of spirituality cannot be whatever you want it to be.

 

It's not. I'd love it if spirituality were potatoes. But I haven't said that spirituality is potatoes.

 

Just that it can be found in potatoes.

 

 

If spirituality is actually so shallow as it can be whatever you want it to be, then I don't need to explain why it's so useless. It's self-defeating, and silly.

 

Many things have many meanings. I invite you to clearly define science, or life, or human, or blue.

 

A simple definition of science that I just found calls it "knowledge attained through study or practice"

http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html

 

So... science is kung fu. Spirituality is a form of science. Knowledge is knowledge.

 

 

 

It's a new type of vicious cycle, not Zen at all. Instead of worrying about something then worrying about worrying and then worrying about worrying, in spiritual vicious cycle you wonder about how spiritual a sandwich is then wonder about wondering and wonder on wonder with wonder.

Sorry, Infinity lol

We can't just BE we have so see spirituality in everything, with a trained enough mind, spirituality is the same as someone who is stuck in worrying loop, but it's not because they don't want to but because it's like drugs. The effects wear off and you are left with nothing, but you want more. Spiritual pursuits are like a hunt for more and more wonder, but it's all an illusion. Just be, that's Zen.

 

I honestly am having trouble figuring out what you're trying to say.

 

Perhaps clear up your English a little.

Edited October 10, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Infinity]

We can't just BE we have so see spirituality in everything, with a trained enough mind, spirituality is the same as someone who is stuck in worrying loop, but it's not because they don't want to but because it's like drugs. The effects wear off and you are left with nothing, but you want more. Spiritual pursuits are like a hunt for more and more wonder, but it's all an illusion. Just be, that's Zen.

 

I said above everything is spiritual I said this "I was just thinking this (sort of ) everything is spiritual, energetic I feel it!"

 

I don't know what Zen is never really read up on it but I do know there are no roads to here. And this moment is energetic and full of spirit for me. Not entirely sure on what you mean, you started by saying "We can't just be" then ended saying "just be, that's zen"?

 

You say we "We have to see spirit in everything" but this post is called 'spirituality has to go'!

 

Words wordz absurdz absurdz.

 

Talking about this stuff often does not get anywhere! You take your road I'll take mine. Enjoy!

 

∞

 

 

[steve]

This is a thread about how useless spirituality is,

 

To you, not to me

 

and what does spirituality have to do with making anyone happy?

 

Everything - and it's an authentic and lasting happiness, not a transient thrill that fades as soon as you see your next object of infatuation.

 

It's as much of a virus as a religion is. You don't know how much you need spirituality until it stares you in the face.

We can survive without technology and be happy living in nature but it doesn't mean we have to be spiritual when living that life.

 

Correct, it's a choice, however there is no example of indigenous people to my knowledge who are not spiritual - but I'm no authority on that and am open to correction. Living close to nature allows it to naturally express itself. Your technological life robs you of that source of peace, security, and happiness. I think this is why people are so fucked up.

 

Enlightenment is useless on the grand scheme of things. You're a Buddha now, whoopity doo. Carry water, chop wood.

 

So is life. You're alive today, dead next week, whoopity doo.

 

There's no need for spiritual fulfillment without knowing spirituality. Enlightenment is treated as an unreachable goal for most people. The goals like that are very freaking arbitrary. "I've reached enlightenment" "No, you didn't" "Why?" "You don't have super powers" Don't get me started on the rainbow body, and what do silly exercises have to do with anything?

First you get a feeling like you need more out of life, then some guy who lived on a mountain for forty years sells you a book and by the time you get to reading it you forger why you were feeling like that in the first place.

 

Yeah, I'm following the profits alright. Deepak Chopra, Mantak Chia, John Chang, the list goes on

COME OUT YOU BASTARDS AND FACE MY SCIENCE!!!

 

that should be on a shirt

Science is valuable and spirituality is valuable and both can be exploited, misguided, misinterpreted, and harmful.

If it's not for you - Mazel Tov.

Why so much bitterness?

Why not live and let live?

[Protector]

You know, i was just pondering there... science and spirituality both have certain benchmarks -- both are dependent on reproducibility of results to substantiate findings -- while science's options at that seems to be shrinking all the time, the reproducibility of results from practices such as meditation, qigong, and prayer are exponentially on the up.

 

It appears that science is gradually losing its grip and unable to cope with the speed of exposures in areas such as physical diseases (especially in the field of oncology) and climatic control -- these are spiralling out of sync so rapidly that duplicating experiments in those fields of research seems to be yielding more and more mysterious and unpredictable factors, whereas spiritual quests thrive on that very mystery itself. So its not just wonderment, but the mysterious nature driving it that highlights the endless possibilities for the development of spirit.

 

Strange, haven't heard of any new spiritual advancements, especially ones that could fix global warming.

http://sutura.io

Science can loose all the grips it wants, I can't imagine anything replacing it.

 

As a side observation, OP... you started this topic on a pretty sure footing, but seems to have gone downhill since. Your last post, for example, did not have the same sort of clarity and conviction as the first one. Time to rethink your strategy perhaps.

 

For some reason I started talking about science a lot and then came the enlightened sandwich movement... dark times... I'll go center

[Bud Jetsun]

Finding spirituality is simply gaining awareness ones thoughts don't think themselves.

 

Anything communicated in words is impossible to express Truth, it can only be a realization you make for yourself. Reject all beliefs. Trust nothing anyone tells you, no matter how fancy the book or how many "masters" quoted it.

 

You are wise to know Liberation can't be given to you by any book or chanting or guru or sacrificial offering etc.

 

Liberation from suffering and enlightenment are realizations a person can only make for themselves through internal understanding.

[bax44]

I've read a lot online of how science has began studying things like meditation(often considered a "spiritual" pursuit) and have proven some pretty profound changes to the brains of those who partake. Mostly in their brain wave patterns etc resulting in more "happiness"(I know that's not really quantifiable but). There was another study that someone posted just recently on gete where scoence has put forth the theory that consciousness contunues for some time after death. many wouls consider this spiritual for sure. Point is why can't science and spirituality kind of co exist? You seem to be pitting the two at odds w each other when the argument can easily be made that the two can be blended for sure in certain instances.

Edited October 11, 2014 by bax44

[C T]

Strange, haven't heard of any new spiritual advancements, especially ones that could fix global warming.

 

Science can loose all the grips it wants, I can't imagine anything replacing it.

 

 

For some reason I started talking about science a lot and then came the enlightened sandwich movement... dark times... I'll go center

There's increasingly new findings being uncovered pertaining to mind sciences. As the mind becomes less mysterious, so will global warming. Thats how it works.

 

I hope for everyone's sake that science will not lose its grip on things.

 

Going centre is good!

[PLB]

If spirituality has to go, then materiality must be done away with at the same time. They are a matched set that cannot exist without the other.

 

Science won't care if both sides of the antinomy go poof. Science works at establishing links of causality that can be proven through experiment. Experiments are a process of isolating causes from other conditions. It is a powerful method and is the center of our technological developments along with advances in our of understanding this place we find ourselves alive within.

 

But science doesn't validate the idea of matter as something that exists a priori. Physics has left that port of call long ago.

What works as science in Psychology is even further from declaring there is this basic underlying stuff and then there are various combinations of what one can do with that aforesaid stuff. The scientist in those fields don't talk that way any longer. They are working on what distinguishes one model from another and what the story becomes in each articulation.

 

Kant died. We have to move on.