What is the difference between Dzogchen, Zen and Anapanasati?

[BaguaKicksAss]

ZOOM so how come Thogal and not Phowa?

 

As an aside, only 1 westerner in Tibet rainbowed, no westerners here under western or non western teachers. 0 folks from just reading books... a few tibetans in tibet (and likely India). So give the numbers...

[ralis]

His Eminence Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche was asked why he hasn't achieved the 'rainbow body'. His response was "I have too much to accomplish here". I guess renovating a stupa as opposed to building schools that would bring his people out of the dark ages is another karmic excuse.

 

Gangteng requires all students to complete the preliminaries before receiving the so called higher teachings. I have taken teachings from him on several occasions.

 

Edited October 6, 2014 by ralis

[C T]

[Jetsun]

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I'm getting started on this and the variety of methods are confusing me.

 

I've been practising watching the breath for the past few years and have once or twice reached the state where my breath has ceased, giving rise to the awareness of chi movement.

 

I don't understand Dzogchen though, is there an essential difference? Where can I find more resources on it, or do I absolutely need a teacher?

 

Thank you.

 

Dzogchen arises out of Tibetan lineages which are fundamentally based upon Guru Yoga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana#Guru_yoga , which means you need a teacher or Guru to practice in the traditional way. I would advise reading about the different turns of the wheel of dharma and what they mean to get a clearer overall picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Turnings_of_the_Wheel_of_Dharma

 

Do you need Dzogchen to progress to the highest levels and gain enlightenment? no you don't. The Dalai Lama who is empowered to teach at the highest level of Dzogchen says it is one of many paths to enlightenment in Buddhism and by no means puts it on a pedestal higher than others like you often see westerners or those on internet message boards do, his emphasis is far more on the Bodhisattva approach. But many people seem to get fixated on Dzogchen because it has a unique manifestation at death called the Rainbow Body, but just because other lineages don't go rainbow it doesn't mean they don't get to be enlightened it just means they don't produce that particular manifestation so it is hard to quantify or prove their effectiveness on an observable physical level.

 

If you don't like the Guru Yoga approach then Zen might be more suitable. It is a fact that the modern psyche for the most part isn't really suitable for Guru Yoga because we have been taught our whole lives to be individualist and to think for ourselves, which is fine it just means that it may be more suitable for us to find a different way than the Tibetans used

[ralis]

Dzogchen arises out of Tibetan lineages which are fundamentally based upon Guru Yoga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana#Guru_yoga , which means you need a teacher or Guru to practice in the traditional way. I would advise reading about the different turns of the wheel of dharma and what they mean to get a clearer overall picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Turnings_of_the_Wheel_of_Dharma

 

Do you need Dzogchen to progress to the highest levels and gain enlightenment? no you don't. The Dalai Lama who is empowered to teach at the highest level of Dzogchen says it is one of many paths to enlightenment in Buddhism and by no means puts it on a pedestal higher than others like you often see westerners or those on internet message boards do, his emphasis is far more on the Bodhisattva approach. But many people seem to get fixated on Dzogchen because it has a unique manifestation at death called the Rainbow Body, but just because other lineages don't go rainbow it doesn't mean they don't get to be enlightened it just means they don't produce that particular manifestation so it is hard to quantify or prove their effectiveness on an observable physical level.

 

If you don't like the Guru Yoga approach then Zen might be more suitable. It is a fact that the modern psyche for the most part isn't really suitable for Guru Yoga because we have been taught our whole lives to be individualist and to think for ourselves, which is fine it just means that it may be more suitable for us to find a different way than the Tibetans used

 

From my research, I have found evidence of what the Sufi's call the 'body of light' which is the same manifestation.

[Brian]

 

From my research, I have found evidence of what the Sufi's call the 'body of light' which is the same manifestation.

It is probably worth noting that Sufism stipulates the student MUST receive a direct transmission of Divine Light from the heart of a teacher, and is clear on the point that worldly knowledge or intellectualism cannot replace that transmission.

[C T]

 

 

this just appeared as i looked out from the bedroom.

[C T]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWvY-05OA90

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Brian]

 

Come to your own conclusion:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35799-the-most-direct-training-practice-in-dzogchen/?p=568658

 

 

Is the logical answer to this really beyond your imagination?

The answer is that my goals developed further with my understanding! Your obvious interpretation however, that my opinions on diverse systems changed in the sense that I jumped from one system to the next, first adoring one then condemning it, is certainly wrong!

I still think that Mo Pai is one of the few legitimate schools on the planet, but as I came to the conclusion, that no westerner will ever get knowledge in that system beyond Mo Pai Level 2b, a level which would not satisfy me, I decided to research other promising systems.

I still have the same positive opinion of Clyman, his healing ability and his system as I had back then, but my goals grew beyond getting "the Jing" or Taoist Immortality towards a state of being, which is absolutely permanent: Buddhahood. And even the Buddhahoods achieved in most buddhist path's as for example in Tantra by achieving illusory body are most likely not more permanent than yang shen immortality in Taoism.

In Taoism is the concept of "celestial immortality" which includes "taking the matter of your body with you" by transforming it into light, but I was unable to find sufficient data of legit systems which could accomplish this goal.

According to the hints of in Waysun Liao's books I concluded that "celestial immortality" is achieved over what Waysun Liao described as "TE", the "innermost being". However, I doubt that Waysun Liao ever taught any westerner how to access "TE" in case he knows it at all.

When I found out about the "rainbow body" phenomenon and the "clear light" energy in Dzogchen, it became clear to me that "rainbow body" and "celestial immortality" are the same phenomenon, as are "TE" and the "mother clear light" in Dzogchen.

So I worked my way so far through 50+ books, discussed intensely with several persons who belong to the the first ones taught in the west by diverse Dzogchen guru's in the 70's and 80's

and tried to analyse and evaluate all the data I could get my hands on, with the goal to understand how Dzogchen works.

What I will tell you is that my results in addition with my personal experience so far suggest that the intellectuals who try to abstract the Dzogchen system as they try to abstract everything else in their life and who feel attracted to Buddhism and Dzogchen due to this misinterpretation of it, would be well advised to get a more grounded and concrete outlook if they intent to get to the bottom of it instead of getting lost with their heads in the clouds.

 

 

In fact the intelligent people in this forum take me and my insights very seriously.

 

Having achieved tangiable results in form of macro PK on an Exorcist-like level on several occasions with witnesses due to intuitive insight into how chi works and can be manipulated in addition to relentless intense training and the ability to focus far beyond average when properly motivated put me in a category worlds beyond 99.99% of all the people here in this forum.

 

Not to mention my scientifically established "far above average intelligence" in the areas "logical deduction", "practical /descriptive reasoning", "verbal reasoning", "orthography", "spatial perception/imagination", "formal conception" and "mechanical-technical conception".

Thank you for your response.

[Brian]

One would assume you are aware that the concept of the "subtle body" is not truly unique to Dzogchen? Not all the conceptually related branchings include the idea of a living body physically transforming into light (except for some seemingly arbitrary parts) and going "Poof!" like is portrayed in the "rainbow body" model but there are some striking parallels.

 

This old TTB thread is an interesting starting point for anyone curious:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/1644-body-of-light/

[thelerner]

10712732_693088697438251_8122165797699884046_n.jpg

 

 

this just appeared as i looked out from the bedroom.

You know what that means??

 

 

 

 

another Dzogen practitioner gets there rainbow

 

i have too much time on my hands

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Come to your own conclusion:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35799-the-most-direct-training-practice-in-dzogchen/?p=568658

 

In order for anyone to come to a conclusion that you have any real comprehension of Dzogchen based on that link, said link would first have to contain something even remotely related to Dzogchen... but it doesn't.

 

Anyone can put a piece of coal on display and proclaim it is gold.

[ralis]

In order for anyone to come to a conclusion that you have any real comprehension of Dzogchen based on that link, said link would first have to contain something even remotely related to Dzogchen... but it doesn't.

 

Anyone can put a piece of coal on display and proclaim it is gold.

 

Can you explain why?

[steve]

What I will tell you is that my results in addition with my personal experience so far suggest that the intellectuals who try to abstract the Dzogchen system as they try to abstract everything else in their life and who feel attracted to Buddhism and Dzogchen due to this misinterpretation of it, would be well advised to get a more grounded and concrete outlook if they intent to get to the bottom of it instead of getting lost with their heads in the clouds.

 

The irony here is wonderful - you really ought to consider heeding your own advice.

[asunthatneversets]

Can you explain why?

He authored a thread titled "The most direct training practice in dzogchen" containing what could be very loosely referred to as a 'training practice' he, himself made up.

 

That fact in itself should be an adequate explanation, meaning; it should be self-explanatory. If his actions in that regard don't strike you as problematic, then you are either (i) looking to be rebellious and contrary out of spite, (ii) are exceedingly dumb, or (iii) have no clue in hell what Dzogpachenpo is.

 

Since ralis, you are neither dumb, nor ignorant of what Atiyoga is, any show of support for Zoom's asinine display of reckless arrogance in authoring that post must fall in line with option (i).

[Brian]

 

The irony here is wonderful - you really ought to consider heeding your own advice.

Figured his response would be worth the price of admission and he never fails to deliver.

 

[aboo]

One would assume you are aware that the concept of the "subtle body" is not truly unique to Dzogchen? Not all the conceptually related branchings include the idea of a living body physically transforming into light (except for some seemingly arbitrary parts) and going "Poof!" like is portrayed in the "rainbow body" model but there are some striking parallels.

 

This old TTB thread is an interesting starting point for anyone curious:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/1644-body-of-light/

 

May also be somewhat related (About Sri Ramana Maharshi)

 

from "The Power of the Presence Part Two" by David Godman, p.15:

On several occasions Sri Bhagavan had had an unusual experience in which his body would disappear in a flash and disperse into its component atoms. A little later a smoke-like form would appear and the atoms would come together in a form that resembled particles of mist. Finally, the body would reappear in its normal form. Sri Bhagavan used to have this experience whenever he remained in the same position for a long time or when his body got emaciated because he was not taking enough food. This state, in which the body disintegrates into atoms and merges with the five elements, is known as 'pranava body'

Edited October 6, 2014 by aboo

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[stefos]

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I'm getting started on this and the variety of methods are confusing me.

 

I've been practising watching the breath for the past few years and have once or twice reached the state where my breath has ceased, giving rise to the awareness of chi movement.

 

I don't understand Dzogchen though, is there an essential difference? Where can I find more resources on it, or do I absolutely need a teacher?

 

Thank you.

 

Hi,

 

Here is my understanding:

 

Dzogchen states that everyone/every being is already enlightened!

 

The way to continue in "the primordial state" is to self liberate thoughts & emotions.

 

Dzogchen is the Nonduality of Kadag & Lhundrub or Emptiness & "Purity from the very beginning" (Outside & "Inside" space-time).

 

A Dzogchen master doesn't enlighten us.....A master only "introduces" us to our Non-dual state....That's it.

 

Zen is the Japanese version of the Chinese Ch'an.

Ch'an has both a gradual & sudden approach to enlightenment.

The sudden aspect of enlightenment is similar to Dzogchen but not the same.

 

The salient difference? Dzogchen says maintain self liberation and you will abide in Kadag/Lhundrub naturally.

Zen incorporates "bare looking" and such but it's emphasis is purely on Emptiness & not the "Purity from the very beginning" side.

 

Anapanasati works with mindfulness which eventually becomes meditative absorption leading ultimately to Emptiness but the knowledge of "Purity from the very beginning" isn't emphasized, Emptiness is only.

 

Finally, Zen & Anapanasati work with time in gradual stages &/or techniques to break through time. Even the Zen non-dual training.

Dzogchen works with Self LIberation, which is not a meditative absorptive state, which allows the timeless Non-dual state to simply be.

 

I send my love & regards to you

Stefos

Edited October 7, 2014 by stefos

[taoguy]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this huge cognitive dissonance, but i thought I'll try to reply to it bit-by-bit... Didn't expect the thread to explode into 8 pages Thank you for the replies, the posts really helped.

 

Firstly, if everyone was enlightened from the start, why wouldn't an embryo/fetus already be a Buddha? Why would it then allow itself to develop and develop amnesia? If it was enlightened, why would it subject itself to another birth? If this is the case, I would deduce that from the start, we are not really enlightened. Instead, we are innocent - Just as what the famous 3-word poem describes as Mencius' ideology: "When a person is born, one is pure." But I do believe that everybody has the ability to become enlightened - however, it also depends on one's karma and karmic deeds.

 

Secondly, maybe I asked the wrong question but the whole thread seems to be steered towards a discussion of Dzogchen, instead of the differences between them. I'm a follower of Nan Huai-Jin's teachings (as in I follow his writings, especially on the Diamond Sutra, his other books and videos) and he doesn't talk too much about Dzogchen, but more of Zen and Tantric Buddhism. According to the sutras, there are many methods to become enlightened and I recall that the anapanasati was claimed to be one of the fastest methods to achieve enlightenment, on top of merit.

 

Thirdly, isn't every side of a theory just a half-truth because it is polarized? Wouldn't it be the right way to achieve wisdom by ceasing polarities - aka Zen? I remember Siddharta Gautama had learnt under several yoga teachers, and achieved their highest attainments in an extremely short time. He was also a child prodigy who could walk at birth and was learnt in mathematics, philosophies, literature, etc before he left the palace. In the end, he claimed it was the Middle path that eventually worked, and that the way to it was the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths. He also awakened to the concept of interdependent origination, implying that nature was "empty". Was exactly is this Middle Way? Is it merely a "meditation method"? Or is it a way of life incorporating right view, leading to a virtuous life?

 

I'm really confused by the thread, btw.

[Creation]

Has anyone noticed that the OP's question hasn't been answered and they haven't made any further contributions to this thread? Hardly surprising considering the usual descent into axe grinding and displays of personal agenda that bedevils/bemaras the subject on this board.

Yes, I skimmed this thread and noticed this. It seems that discussion of Dzogchen has filled the void left by lack of discussion of Mo Pai.

 

It's disgusting.

 

I wanted to post something in response to the OP, but I don't want to put kind of energy I wanted to bring to that post into this thread.

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM