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Taoist practice advice for post ejaculation fatigue symptoms?


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#1 buckaroobonzai

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 01:18 PM

Alright this is a lengthy topic that I'll try to make as concise as possible while explaining everything required.
When I was in my early twenties my lifestyle was basically eating tv dinners, fast food, junk snacks etc., waking up at noon and taking late college classes, playing guitar in a band, playing RPGs, playing some hockey once in a great while, smoked cigarrettes, and partying-drinking and smoking doobies- hitting the hay around 2-4 AM every night.
I also was dating, and had normal regular sex with my girlfriend, as well as "self stimulation". Well I was doing this for about four years out of high school, then I noticed I was feeling tired alot. Then one evening, I was out a a local beach party, I had a couple of beers, when I went home that night I "self stimulated" twice finishing off both times. The second time something very weird happened, I felt something like a mental energy drain, like some kind of vitality exited my body and/or mind. I immediately felt exhausted and felt strange bodily/nerve pain sensations. To make a long story short these continued for years after this, resulting in problems sleeping, fatigue on and off all the time, and pains in what felt like the nerves on and off.
Doctors diagnosed epstein barr and then later chronic fatigue. However a couple of years ago I went to a holisitc practioner who said he cured hinself of chronic fatigue. I went through the program and was able to fix close to 85-90 percent of my issues with detoxification.

However there are a couple of issues remaining. The one I am most concerned about is that after I ejaculate, be it with a girl, "self stimulation", or a wet dream i am physically drained for days, and I experience aching under the ribs on the sides-alleviated most of the time when I urinate. I have been reading up on Taoist yoga -inner alchemy and have seen how the taoist (as well as Aryuvedic tradtion), considers ejaculation the loss of vital energy.

1. I am wondering if I should try to learn how to transform the semen into vital essence energy as described in the book:
Taoist yoga, alchemy and immortality

2. Is this the best solution, or do I supplement my nurishment and excercise practices to increase the health and energy levels to withstand these regular functions which are resulting in these symptoms?

3. Can there be a mental component I am missing, blocking, and/or not realising that can be causing these symptoms? I feel I don't have any hangups or problems with ejaculation, and my guess that these symptoms are leftover from the initial onset so many years ago that night when I first got sick. I have read about personal energy fields, and how burning coal walkers simply train their minds to think that they will not let the burning coals affect them when they walk over them, and so their body is not affected. If this can be a mental manifestation (?), can the mind be retrained to block this type of conscious or subconscious thinking?


Any suggestions on further research, more places to look, others to ask on this matter? My holistic health practitioner has not been able to help very much with this problem. I have been considering seeing a TCM practitioner, but she has said she will most likely recommend herbs for the symptoms.

Whew, thas a lot to read...sorry

#2 mbanu

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 01:41 PM

Sleep more than usual. Sleep is the backbone of jing restoration. Avoid coffee, black tea, hard liquor, and tobacco.

Before engaging in sexual activity of any kind, ask yourself if you are actually horny. If the answer is yes, go for it, but if the answer is no, find something else to do that will satisfy your needs. It may sound odd, but you'd be surprised how often people will ejaculate due to stress, boredom, or force of habit rather than because of genuine urge.

Most importantly, go to a licensed TCM doc, and get them to give you a checkup. Follow their advice.

Edited by mbanu, 04 September 2007 - 01:45 PM.

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#3 Mal

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 09:25 PM

1. I am wondering if I should try to learn how to transform the semen into vital essence energy as described in the book:
Taoist yoga, alchemy and immortality

2. Is this the best solution, or do I supplement my nurishment and excercise practices to increase the health and energy levels to withstand these regular functions which are resulting in these symptoms?

3. Can there be a mental component I am missing, blocking, and/or not realising that can be causing these symptoms?


1. If you are interested yes, but it would be a lot of hard work if you are only doing it "just" to fix your problem.

2. Balancing food, exercise and sleep would IMHO help more. Remember an "average Jo" is able to ejaculate without problems.

3. Do you worry about this? Trick question :) I find with any sexual performance issue there is sure to be a mental component involved, espicially if you are "worried". Fixing this can be time consuming so try to enjoy the process.

Different things work for different people, I would try the TCM person and see how you go.
KAP

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"Don't think.....feel" Bruce Lee | "Feel.....don't think" Qui-Gon Jinn

#4 buckaroobonzai

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:58 AM

Yes, the only problems I am having, are post ejaculation, where there is fatigue, and aches under the sides of the ribs if I don't urinate frequently. I enjoy the process aqnd have no problems holding it, I can hold it for hours, and do not need to ejaculate when orgasm occur either. I have been practising techniques to hold the energy in check.

The holistic health practitioner has also recommended that I remove some amalgam fillings which have mercury in them, considering that I have nine of these. He says there may be toxicity involved that is causing fatigue, aching, hypersensitivity etc. The plan is to get that done soon.

My eating habits are good as I avoid all white processed sugar, junk snacks, and eat mostly home cooked meals and vegetables. I try to buy organic as much as I can afford. I also drink mostly only distilled water, though the quantity fluctuates, I need to increse the amount again.

I hope this can be relieved by completing the detox. I want to also visit a TCM practitioner and see what herbs they will recommend.

Lately I have been trying to take siberian ginseng for three days or so after ejaculating, this seems to have increased the energy levelos I feel, though hasn't completely alleviated the symptoms.

Thank for the suggestions everyone.

#5 Mal

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 03:14 PM

Yes, the only problems I am having, are post ejaculation, where there is fatigue, and aches under the sides of the ribs if I don't urinate frequently. I enjoy the process aqnd have no problems holding it, I can hold it for hours, and do not need to ejaculate when orgasm occur either. I have been practising techniques to hold the energy in check.


I'm just starting to have success with retention and interestingly I also ache on the sides under the ribs. I am learning a staff form for kung fu and I had attributed this soreness to that (there are some sweeps that really test out my intercostals) but perhaps its from using the mussels differently for retention.

You are much more advanced than me, I remember reading in another thread that people can feel the drop in energy for between 3 days to a week after ejaculation, perhaps you are just feeling that?

But probably the best advice is the post from Trunk in the
Semen Retention – Post Ejaculation Depression thread,
not sure how to link these properly :)

I've got a bunch of thoughts that I'm going to throw at the wall. Let me know what sticks. :D

Semen retention is a side path, an adjunct to support deeper work. So far, you've said that you have frequent sexual activity and that you retain ... it seems that you've taken up a side path as your main path, and that's a recipe for trouble (link). Without the deeper work, there's not a sufficient basis to transform what you are storing.

Do you have alignment with an enlightened lineage?

Do you have a practice of steady lower tan tien breathing? Accomplished to where it's smooth like butter? Clearly you've learned to shuttle sexual energy out of the lower tan tien, but have you kept the lower tan tien itself supple and in good circulation? (link)

Are you awakening the centers, or just stimulating them? Do you know the difference? (link)

Are you practicing some system of physical vertical integration? Still standing? Internal martial art? (link)

Obviously you're circulating sexual energy up, but are you sufficiently moving the higher energies down (so that the lower centers become more supple)? (link)


KAP

bye for now
Mal - artmgs@yahoo.com
You are not what you think you are. But what you think... you are.
"Don't think.....feel" Bruce Lee | "Feel.....don't think" Qui-Gon Jinn

#6 Trunk

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 03:20 AM

..after I ejaculate, ... I experience aching under the ribs on the sides-alleviated most of the time when I urinate. I have been reading up on Taoist yoga -inner alchemy and have seen how the taoist (as well as Aryuvedic tradtion), considers ejaculation the loss of vital energy.

1. I am wondering if I should try to learn how to transform the semen into vital essence energy as described in the book:
Taoist yoga, alchemy and immortality

2. Is this the best solution, or do I supplement my nurishment and excercise practices to increase the health and energy levels to withstand these regular functions which are resulting in these symptoms?

.. I have been considering seeing a TCM practitioner, ..


Advice:
1. Go see a TCM practitioner. At least some of what you have going on a TCMer will spot right away and be able to help.
2. Don't do retention, it's very advanced and - done wrong (link) - will only make your situation worse.
3. If I were you, I'd do some self-acupressure, hindu squats, and gentle lower tan tien breathing. On a regular basis.

Just an over-simplified assessment: Your kidney energy is deficient, and your liver qi is stuck. The thing is, you can't restore the kidneys easily because the stuck energy is blocking the way. So, you need to gradually do things to resolve the stuck energy and then nourishment will naturally circulate in and restore. If you try semen retention, it'll just make the stuck situation much worse.

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#7 buckaroobonzai

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 11:04 AM

Quote Mal: [quote]I'm just starting to have success with retention and interestingly I also ache on the sides under the ribs. I am learning a staff form for kung fu and I had attributed this soreness to that (there are some sweeps that really test out my intercostals) but perhaps its from using the mussels differently for retention.

You are much more advanced than me, I remember reading in another thread that people can feel the drop in energy for between 3 days to a week after ejaculation, perhaps you are just feeling that?[/quote]

I have noticed that while most of the pains associated with frequent urination are under the sides of the ribs, I also had pelvice pain and discomfort. From what I remember of Chi focus points/merdians, important locations are the kidney area and lower pelvic sides, my pains seem to correlate to these locations.
My retention was attained before I studied any Taoist practices. It was a natural method I have been doing for several years and seems to be not a major connection to the post recovery fatigue/pains.


quote name='Trunk' date='Sep 6 2007, 03:20 AM' post='35333']
Advice:
1. Go see a TCM practitioner. At least some of what you have going on a TCMer will spot right away and be able to help.
2. Don't do retention, it's very advanced and - done wrong (link) - will only make your situation worse.
3. If I were you, I'd do some self-acupressure, hindu squats, and gentle lower tan tien breathing. On a regular basis.

Just an over-simplified assessment: Your kidney energy is deficient, and your liver qi is stuck. The thing is, you can't restore the kidneys easily because the stuck energy is blocking the way. So, you need to gradually do things to resolve the stuck energy and then nourishment will naturally circulate in and restore. If you try semen retention, it'll just make the stuck situation much worse.

Trunk
[/quote]


Thanks for the advice Trunk! You seem like you are very knowledgeable in TCM and Taoism. I am not doing hardly any semen retention now. I will definitely do the self-acupressure, hindu squats, and gentle lower tan tien breathing. Also, I was going to learn the microcosmic orbit meditation from Mantak Chia’s videos:
http://www.pacifictao.com/video.html

I also may try Chi Nei Tang massage. Here is a quote directly from the description of “Mantak Chia Chi Nei Tsang I: Internal Organs Massage “The technique of Chi Nei Tsang I is to massage directly into the Navel Center and the surrounding abdominal area. In the Navel Center, stress, tension, and negative emotion accumulate and congest. When this occurs, all vital functions stagnate. This stagnation slowly weakens the internal organs and decreases your energy and vitality. Chi Nei Tsang I massage quickly releases the negative emotion, tentions and sickness, bringing comfort and relief to the abdomen and vital energy to the internal organs.”

I have a feeling my chi is blocked around the kidneys, liver, pelvic chi meridians and I need to free it up to circulate energy, and I will do so using the techniques Trunk mentioned. I also want to try the Mantak Chia microcosmic orbit meditation and Chi Nei Tsang massage, do you guys think that’s a good idea?

Also, are there Taoist internal alchemy/yoga trainers where one can study in person?
















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#8 Eric23

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 11:19 AM

If you're having discomfort and pain associated with urination and ejaculation, I would have your health practictioner check for a prostate infection among other things. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

#9 Spectrum

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 04:24 PM

Also, I was going to learn the microcosmic orbit meditation from Mantak Chia’s videos:
http://www.pacifictao.com/video.html


Don't do this until you clear up your other issues.

I have a feeling my chi is blocked around the kidneys, liver, pelvic chi meridians and I need to free it up to circulate energy, and I will do so using the techniques Trunk mentioned.


Retain w/ purpose. Health is a good reason. Keep a practice journal. Document what you feel or your inspirations. This will also help keep your mind free during practice. Focus on a training regime that gives you the results your desire. In your case "normal" energy cycles, although what you are experiencing IS normal, if that makes sense. Everyone has to learn about themselves on their own path. Looking back is easy, looking forward from where we are is sometimes difficult, you might have to take a couple steps back to see the path again. It sounds to me that you are starting from the basic foundations, so if you work on those, and don't get caught up with all the visualization crap that is out there you will do fine. This is a journey of health as much as livable wisdom, one without the other cheapens the whole practice of chi gung.

I also want to try the Mantak Chia microcosmic orbit meditation and Chi Nei Tsang massage, do you guys think that’s a good idea?


Again. NO.

Perhaps for some basic ideas of the meridians and circuitry and what wu ji is... but I would avoid mantaks books until you have a foundation for practice (wuji) because w/o wuji nothing else will make sense, and sensations that you may have during practice or breakthrus have no grounding and are hard to communicate anything about. I use this communication process loosely, as I don't mean getting on TB and telling us all the nitty gritties about your 3rd eye opening or whatever, but between you and your teacher/mentor/guide.

Having some type of dialog is important for success.


Also, are there Taoist internal alchemy/yoga trainers where one can study in person?

Have you devoted any time to strengthing your "core", while your practicing your "retention"?

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#10 Counterpoints

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 08:10 PM

This problems you describe are probably a result of POIS -- Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. Scientific journal papers have been written about this condition. Please see: http://www.thenakeds...hp?topic=6576.0

for more information.


You may also want to fill out this medical questionnaire:
http://pois.olympe-network.com


Best luck.

#11 Spectrum

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 08:16 PM

Counterpoints missed the T

See:

Have you devoted any time to strengthing your "core", while your practicing your "retention"?


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#12 Franky

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:58 AM

Well, there are some misconceptions about ejaculation, both from the celibacy and free love communities.

#1
Ejaculation does not deplete testosterone. There is no testosterone in semen. Actually, lack of ejaculation deminishes testosterone.

http://www.bodybuild...building-gains/
(of course the dumb body builders would think they lose testosterone)

http://www.bluelight...p/t-144743.html
(I believe post #11 is an article)

#2
There are various degrees of the quality of blood in your body. The main priority if the best blood in your body is used to make semen. It's something like 40 parts blood to make one part semen. When a guys reserves are full, the good blood goes to other tasks. One of the first places it goes once your loaded is to your brain. This high quality blood helps with memory and concentration. Maybe prolonged exposure of the brain to the good blood can make one feel more spiritually aware. This would explain all religions seaking of celibacy being enlightened.

As far as your situation from your habbits, well I think it's from over use. Just like how a sports injury can come from over use of a seemingly harmless excersize, well your sport-wanking has probably given you a sports injury of your nervous, hormonal and reproductive systems.

I'd say retain your jing for a long time(months) and let your body and mind heal. once you start to have noctournal emmissions, then maybe you could ease back into the habbits. Never go back to that frequency or intensity of your old habbits.

#13 WestwardMonkey

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:39 PM

1) Post ejaculation I found white tea very helpful, for a little more umph add korean gensing.
2) Diet wise more fruits, veggies and nuts (walnuts are great).
3) Key nutrients to consider in diet calcium, vitamin D, vitamin C, magnesium, selenium and zinc (used up through ejaculation).
4) After sex at the very minimum no exercize for 24 hour but pay attetion to your body. I heard of some waited even 72 hours.
5) READ MORE ON THIS FIRST BEFORE DOING, pressing the huiyin point just before ejaculation causes a suction making you have an orgasm with out the sperm. I found this very effective once it is understood well.
6) Reduce salt intake
7) A good read for a better understanding read: The Tao of health, sex, & longevity by Daniel P. Reid it has a section devoted to sex practices and what Taoist masters of old did.

Hope this helps out I been down that road before and it sucks, but it was not all bad I gain alot of knowledge because of it. There is always some good in the bad. :)

P.S. If this does not help please see a doctor just in case it is something very serious
I guess will head east so I don't have to see the sunset and in its warmth is always spring.

#14 hagar

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:20 PM

Lot of good advice here. Here's my 2 kroner.

1I'd stay away from the pressing of Yui Yin point, and all HT sexual techniques. period. Will bring you nothing but worries.

2. Like Trunk said: Circulate before retention. Retention without circulation and transformation is just throwing gazonline on a fire.

3. Like Mbanu said: Get rest, and let go of emotionally based sexual activity. See the root of the sexual impulse and much will solve itself. Sleep, sleep, and train hard. Run, do workouts, meditate with the intention of releasing stuck emotional energy.

4. Spend time in nature. Mostly by the sea or in the mountains. I find granite the most potent.
Toil, sweat and rest in the mountains is my best practice. No form involved. Will replenish your innate essential water.

5. Do NOT watch porn.

6. Be honest, speak your heart, do what you say or think you will. Why?
it will make it harder to fall back into jing-depleting activities like staying up all night, drinking, smoking, having sex. (sounds nice, yet it's all for the wrong reasons)

h

#15 Pranaman

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 05:13 PM

by chance are you a fellow mycotopiate?

...
look into grounding.

Eckhart Tolle's "The Power Of Now" or " A New Earth" will make life easier for you while you are on your path.

start physically.

I used to experience this very fatigue you speak of. Zhan Zhuang (standing) has contributed to the retainment of vitality I experience after orgasm now. Also coupled with physical sexual health exercises, like at mattersofsize.com.
"The foundation is Zhan Zhuang - the practice that refines the flow energy in the human body. Zhan Zhuang transforms the weak into the strong and makes the awkward agile. Stand without moving - each of your cells will work and grow. Your blood will move and bring your vital functions into harmony. You stand in stillness, apparently inert. Within your being you are filled with strength." - Grand Master Wang Xiangzhai

#16 sahaj

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:40 PM

The best and ultimately the only way to
avoid this problem is to find the right frequency of ejaculations for you personally and don't go over
your limit. You will lose energy if the frequency is too high and you will get too "hardcore" if you
don't do enough. It's a personal journey with no fixed formulas (although the manuals have some advice).

Don't ejaculate for a certain amount of time until you REALLY feel the need to let 'er blow. Then monitor the
result. If you feel relaxed and energized it was time, if you feel depleted you shot to soon. And retain until you feel energy again, repeat the experiment until you get a feel for it.

I've dealt with this problem by really seeing clearly with experience that sex with ejaculation isn't even close to where you can go in sex without ejaculating. Then you give up the much lesser joy of a squirt for a whole energy dance that blows you and her away.
Good luck




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