Women & TTB

[3bob]

simply put - men and women are not equal in all ways and if any man or woman doesn't see that well then imo they are more or less nuts. (and I don't care if someone or no one agrees with that summation)

Edited September 2, 2014 by 3bob

[Uroboros]

It's kind of astounding that anyone would object to a Women Cultivation Section. Women are still free to post about topics of special concern to their gender in the general area if they choose. But if they prefer to discuss among themselves (us guys are still free to listen in) what's the big deal?

 

Awhile back there was a thread where anybody could post questions but only teachers could answer. To my memory, nobody raised a ruckus.

 

Liminal

 

Personally, I have a desire to learn more about female specific cultivation. No matter how much someone may dislike it, men and women have different body structures and must do things differently. It just is.

 

I dont have a uterus.I dont have a vagina. I dont have the same kind of breasts as a woman. I dont menstruate. I cannot create a new life inside of me nor give birth.

 

I know plenty of people who do and can, though. Its half of what it means to be human, knowing nothing of that shows a lack of understanding about life.

 

What if I want to help a female cultivate or heal? Do I know the ways to go about that? How the paths differ and how they connect? How a female body utilizes energy differently then a man?

 

I know very little. I want to know more. I will read the womens cultivation threads, even if my participation is not wanted. I feel many male cultivators would benefit greatly from learning about where the paths differ based on gender.

 

Edit-

 

This is still male focused, though. It is me, a man, talking about what I can gain from women talking about female cultivation.

 

Perhaps that is part of the problem.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Uroboros

[dawei]

The action violates TTBs founding principles whether it has been done already or not.

 

Besides you're claiming that men have , and do run the women off ,

( like who?) and that the women will only participate if there arent men around.

I dont like the implication ....that women in the same context as men get dominated.

subtext , that women are essentially .weak , perpetuating stereotype both against women, and against men.

 

If Admin changes the founding principles , well then those are changed , but if those principles arent changed , then the womens cultivation forum is in violation of the standing principles.

 

You forgot to post all of Trunk's comments earlier... he included for such reasons as this one:

 

The admin also has broad discretion to protect the civility and resources of any aspect within TTBs e-community.

 

What men have run off women? Chidragon for one. A TCM doctor. He belittled her and claimed she knew nothing. She didn't come back. So his recent un-welcoming manner of lecturing of another newbie has now resulted in his suspension again. Staff sees much more than a single thread.

 

Women can post ANYWHERE... and that includes a specific cultivation area called Women's Cultivation.

 

I don't see the problem but I am hearing a lot of unfriendly welcome of a Women's area... Ergo, this thread...

[dawei]

And I should let everyone know that the new area actually still falls quite short in terms of providing women a safe and secure area to talk about anything they want in terms of issues and cultivation, or life.

 

There is a feature which would require a login to get access and this would effectively give them the full privacy they might really want to talk some issues... but I am sure the male population here would scream mutiny to give woman such a secure feeling here.

 

For now, the new form area is open and moderated by women like a PPD.

[JohnC]

It's kind of astounding that anyone would object to a Women Cultivation Section. Women are still free to post about topics of special concern to their gender in the general area if they choose. But if they prefer to discuss among themselves (us guys are still free to listen in) what's the big deal?

 

Awhile back there was a thread where anybody could post questions but only teachers could answer. To my memory, nobody raised a ruckus.

 

Liminal

Is there going to be a male cultivation space?

[Taomeow]

I am a member of a Russians-in-America forum that has a section for women only, completely off limits to men. Russians are notoriously non-PC and most of TTB members would be shocked out of their minds if they could see how far they can take it, but sexism of the kind encountered here is not there. It's just common sense that women might have stuff to talk about that men should not be listening in on. Even men who are pretty medieval in their views don't doubt it -- it simply never occurred to them to raise any objections, why would anyone dislocate his brain out of common sense to come up with objections? Well, now that I think of it... in this country men are present even at labor, which is unheard of in human history -- that was one area they never controlled, monitored, surveyed, supervised -- I think our current government-surveillance situation is the outcome of people having been born this way for the first time in history, with the very first imprinting stamped into their unconscious being, "don't you dare keep any secrets from daddy" --

 

OK, I better stop.

[dawei]

Is there going to be a male cultivation space?

 

As was said before... the entire TTB has run-over and overtaken by male cultivation.

 

Where can you not post it? (rhetorical)

[dawei]

I am a member of a Russians-in-America forum that has a section for women only, completely off limits to men.

 

I am curious how they really validate the gender of someone who wants access to the area...

[gendao]

Being a male/female/other is not something you have any control over however.

Neither is your race, or sexual orientation. This is how you are born.

 

Targeting anything about any impossible to change conditions, is utterly hateful and destructive.

 

There is nothing for the targeted person to do, other than try to defend themselves, although logically it is not something they can actually be 'wrong' about. 'Wrong' implies the possibility of becoming 'Right' indicating 'change', which for these people is an impossibility.

 

Hatespeech is therefore something that can only ever be harmful, rude, and pointlessly timewasting.

 

There is no possible answer to it.

Well according to some schools of thought, like in Destiny of Souls, we actually do choose everything we experience, on some level (albeit often not conscious now). And this includes who we incarnate as and with in each lifetime. Which may also vary by gender, race, sexual orientation, etc with different lifetimes..

 

Within this paradigm, the only possible answer to outer acceptance is self-acceptance.

In Tibet, there's a saying, don't try to subjugate imaginary demons, learn to subjugate one's own mind. Then both mind and demons are pacified.

3. Because of some ambiguous reason about us all looking within, which is kind of fascist in its implications that that is therefore the correct practice for everyone here, and also puts the blame on the victim for feeling upset.

"poor dear, did the nasty person say unmoderated terrible things about you? Silly you, you should have looked within, so its your fault that they hurt your feelings."

Self-inquiry and self-accountability are genuine foundations for self-healing whether via Byron Katie, 12-step programs or the "Law of Attraction" that often work when nothing else does..

Thats what I call spiritual bypassing.

 

The delusion that trusting in spirit alone will sort out everything, when maybe spirit gave us the ability and desire to make things right, to stand for important issues and so on.. Spirits inspiration, our hands?

Whereas avoiding one's own deeply personal pains through such processes via generic pseudo-spiritual escapism is what's actually defined as "spiritual bypassing." And which only leaves people wallowing in their own festering wounds while continually blaming others for it...

Spiritual bypassing, a term first coined by psychologist John Welwood in 1984, is the use of spiritual practices and beliefs to avoid dealing with our painful feelings, unresolved wounds, and developmental needs.

Of course, people can be their own judge and see how spiritual bypassing vs self-inquiry works for them...

I've noticed the same thing, though it's usually white straight males talking about how horrible/sexist/racist other white straight males are. The self-guilt many Westerners carry is toxic.

Well, I'm willing to bet that a lot of the "anti-racism" tirades here are really a proxy for "anti-White males" which is really a proxy for "anti-my White Father who never approved of me and so now I angrily reject him and everything he stands for back." That unfulfilled desire (for a proud Dad) creates a wound so deep that people will displace their pain-turned-to-anger onto a similar group (bias) for the rest of their lives...or until they finally find the courage to face up to it (self-inquiry).

 

Of course, this doesn't completely invalidate one's activist causes (like anti-biases) - but external fixes are generally only short-term "solutions." Inner work is needed to help one truly transcend them in the long run, rather than just keep manifesting and reacting to them in an endless feedback loop. There is a critical distinction between following our own true Nature (Taoism & being) vs reacting to our own outer stimuli.

 

 

So...who grew up with and has a proud, accepting, loving (White) Dad vs a judgmental, intolerant, disapproving one, here?

Edited September 2, 2014 by vortex

[JohnC]

And I should let everyone know that the new area actually still falls quite short in terms of providing women a safe and secure area to talk about anything they want in terms of issues and cultivation, or life.

 

There is a feature which would require a login to get access and this would effectively give them the full privacy they might really want to talk some issues... but I am sure the male population here would scream mutiny to give woman such a secure feeling here.

 

For now, the new form area is open and moderated by women like a PPD.

I like the idea of having a space for both men and women. A place where men can talk about their sexual stuff, and women can as well. I prefer that would available to the general area where everyone is, and I get that some people have shame, embarrassment and other experiences that keep them from fully expressing themselves.

 

Yes there will be PEOPLE that are belligerent, condescending, etc on both sides. Women bashing men, and men bashing women. And likewise there will be PEOPLE that feel afraid/not safe/whatever and because of that won't post. There have been men that have been chased off, and women that have been chased off.

 

That individually people will have any number of different experiences. I'm sure there are men here that don't post out of fear, and there are women here that don't post out of fear. But to that end, it is more about the individuals path and journey to bring themselves REGARDLESS of what they feel like is in the way (Male/female oppression... or whatever). But there seems to be this idea being spoken of 'men are chasing off women and making the space unsafe.' Safe as defined by who? Because for every person 'safe' is going to be different to some degree. And by buying into that men are making it 'unsafe', what else are we buying into? That men are doing this to women, and women are the victims of that?

 

Some of the longest and oldest members here are women... who often post amazing posts.

 

I feel most inspired to support a forum where everyone can take care of themselves, both in posting and asking for help if someone is getting abusive in some way. Where people post as they please and are responsible for their experience in that. I don't feel inspired to support a forum where we attempt to take care of everyone and make sure every space is safe. Because I think that will be at the expense of everyone else's freedom of expression. Like the thought police or something, 'NO YOU CANT SAY THAT BECAUSE IT MIGHT TRIGGER SOMEONE!!!' - Yes it might.. and I trust them to take care of themselves, or not read it if they don't want to... or whatever.

 

-------

 

To the degree that we buy into the idea that one is more than the other, or one is less than the other, thus needing special treatment in some way, we are still playing to the same tune of 'not equal'.

 

I think that if the rules of conduct are supportive and inclusive enough, and moderation is appropriate in action and discernment, then that can provide a space for everyone to post and express themselves as they please.

 

John

[JohnC]

As was said before... the entire TTB has run-over and overtaken by male cultivation.

 

Where can you not post it? (rhetorical)

The women can post anywhere as well.

 

John

[Apech]

Can we have two new spaces called :

 

The Yoni Tent

 

The Lingham Lodge

 

 

.... ok only joking

[dawei]

To the degree that we buy into the idea that one is more than the other, or one is less than the other, thus needing special treatment in some way, we are still playing to the same tune of 'not equal'.

 

I think that if the rules of conduct are supportive and inclusive enough, and moderation is appropriate in action and discernment, then that can provide a space for everyone to post and express themselves as they please.

 

It is a good and thoughtful post... but still possibly a bit utopian.

 

We try not to moderate content; folks can post what they want. And posting styles are what they are; sometimes tasteful and sometimes not... but the rules look mostly to insults, intimidation, hatred, etc.

 

We provide a space for everyone to post and express themselves but if they feel intimidated, disrespected, ignored, talked down to, etc... then it is not the space but the attitudes which prevail.

 

Let's not forget that a sub-forum or forum in general is meant to consolidate content so that folks can talk a common issue. As women issues are largely squeezed out of most areas, it seems logical to create one.

[dawei]

The women can post anywhere as well.

 

John

 

Yes... I've said that already in this thread... the question is: Why don't they?

 

If one has a business, they ultimately must face serious questions as to why the business is not working... so here we are.

[Apech]

The lodge sounds more spacious already.

 

How about the Yoni Palace then ...

[thelerner]

 

TTC Chapter 28

 

知其雄，守其雌

Know the masculine principle;

abide by the female principle.

I think the profound truth here for longevity and wisdom, know aggressive but abide in yin, quiet, receiving, humble, gathering, intuition.

[JohnC]

Yes... I've said that already in this thread... the question is: Why don't they?

 

If one has a business, they ultimately must face serious questions as to why the business is not working... so here we are.

So the idea that men are pushing women out is what is being thrown around...

 

Women are just as strong as men. Stronger in some ways and weaker in others. Just as men are stronger in some ways and weaker in others.

I think we should treat them as such.

 

And specific examples of how women issues are getting squeezed out, I think is necessary for us to address if it is even an issue. Are they getting squeezed out, or are there not enough women that can speak to them?

 

Instead of oppression, it could be that thetaobums as a site draws men more than women anyway, and women are looking more for sites like this:

http://azra5.afina.co.uk/

 

Yea, facing the facts of whether things are working or not is important. And facing the reality of what kind of clientele seem to keep showing up and sticking around is important as well. (mopai,the engineering like focus of some of taoist practices, people looking for spiritual powers/enlightenment/etc, semen retention...... which so far seems to be a lot of men)

 

John

[gendao]

Yes... I've said that already in this thread... the question is: Why don't they?

 

If one has a business, they ultimately must face serious questions as to why the business is not working... so here we are.

That's a good question.

 

One possibility is that more women may place a higher priority on finding cultural identity & community with their spiritual affiliations. Whereas more men may seek more esoteric (無) and solitary "Dragon Ball Z"-type goals.

So, the classic archetype of a Taoist mountain hermit living in isolated solitude probably appeals to more men than women...even though the philosophy itself may actually be more female-friendly than some of the organized religions or metaphysical arts that are far more popular with women (Abrahamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Yoga, Reiki, etc).

 

If that's so, then maybe this "business" IS working precisely as it naturally (in Taoist fashion) should? Or are all special interest groups supposed to naturally randomly be exactly population-proportional?

Edited September 2, 2014 by vortex

[Taomeow]

I am curious how they really validate the gender of someone who wants access to the area...

 

I don't know -- I never asked for access to that area, I only read the political section at that forum. See, I don't want to discuss things female with just any women, I discriminate in favor of cultivating women! One can take this my-preference "discrimination" as far as she likes -- e.g. I will talk to women with later-in-life cultivation interests rather than teenage girls with their menstrual cramps of no interest to me at this point, how's that for age discrimination?.. I will even talk to men provided I know them and they come in humility to the women's sanctuary and swear that they won't sue should things I have to say inadvertently damage their sex esteem. (There was a guy here who at one point angrily blamed me for doing the lotus the way I posted I do it and getting a clicking knee as a result. Sex cultivation is FAR more dangerous than lotus sitting, so I would think twice and thrice before giving any men any ideas -- who knows how their bodies and minds work at the level not accessible to me, if even their knees work differently! )

 

I can ask how they validate the gender, but my guess is, they don't take strangers to that section. The forum is old (about the same age as TTB) and everybody knows everybody -- and newcomers are promptly taught to do as the Romans do or get banned with no excuses or explanations.

[dawei]

If that's so, then maybe this "business" IS working precisely as it naturally (in Taoist fashion) should? Or are all special interest groups supposed to naturally randomly be exactly population-proportional?

 

I see it more like:

1. TTB offers the safe space

2. Men come in and dominate the space

3. TTB re-offers the space

 

Buddhism was special interest... as was Hindu and Esoteric talk... and Local meetup... and film and book discussions, and healing circle, and interviews, and PPDs, and textual studies...

 

Does this really get missed?

[gendao]

I see it more like:

1. TTB offers the safe space

2. Men come in and dominate the space

3. TTB re-offers the space

 

Buddhism was special interest... as was Hindu and Esoteric talk... and Local meetup... and film and book discussions, and healing circle, and interviews, and PPDs, and textual studies...

 

Does this really get missed?

Actually, I was speculating about varying natural gender preferences in spiritual orientations in general, not just in this forum. It could likely be that Taoism as a whole is naturally majority-male - and TTB could then just be a natural reflection of that?

 

I mean, certainly other groups like Reiki or American Yoga are heavily dominated by female memberships. And I don't think that is due to them actively excluding men, but that they simply draw more women for various reasons.. Or, do you think they ultimately must face serious questions as to why their businesses are "not working" too?

[dawei]

Or, do you think they ultimately must face serious questions as to why their businesses are "not working" too?

 

I am not going to speak for what another website of energy practice may do or not.

 

I can only deal with what we have here: Whether women feel welcomed or not.

 

 

I would recommend for folks interested:

 

Women in Daoism

 

 

 

Added: We should probably end this thread on this note.