Help us help Buddhist Discussion

[Simple_Jack]

But the fact is that the other areas have more oversight and participation of the staff.

 

It seems to be a historical preference to ignore the Buddhist drama and wait for a Report; and it seems that the Buddhist circle has gotten used to the crude slugfest of words and insults and we only get the really suspect posts.

 

So in the Buddhist forum we are more like, wait-and-react to reports but in most of the other forums we are proactive.

 

That's the spirit: moderation is key unless you would prefer having meta-discussions about the Buddhist sub-forum. These three posts should form the guiding principles of this forum:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33273-prajna-is-3-fold/?p=563751 - this post(s) needs to be pinned.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36001-help-us-help-buddhist-discussion/?p=573634

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36001-help-us-help-buddhist-discussion/?p=574255

 

Creating/pinning a faqs page with basic Hinayana/Mahayana tenets would possibly help to stave off future incidences.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Brian]

The point being that the perceived merit of a person's opinion or belief should be irrelevant with regards to another's behavior towards that first person.

 

If I think someone is sharing incorrect information, I can share what I think is correct information. Perhaps that person will see the errors (from my perspective) of his or her ways, or perhaps other readers will recognize the difference -- or perhaps not. (EDIT: BTW, if we are using our awareness, we might actually learn something from the interaction...)

 

In any event, though, incivility is inacceptable on this forum. If one can interact (in general or in a particular thread or sub-forum, or with a particular individual, or on a particular topic) in a cogent and respectful manner then one is encouraged to participate. If one cannot refrain from insult, innuendo and snark-thinly-veiled-as-pseudo-intellectualism (among other breaches, transgressions or personality flaws) then one should refrain from engaging.

 

One's expression of disagreement should not resemble an assault.

 

 

I see myself in this mirror, BTW.

 

Excellent post - so what is done when folks don't follow this simple, effective advice?

Sorry, steve! I realize I never replied to your question.

 

Well...

 

When my son was younger, we had some issues along these lines and we corrected his incivility by first talking with him to ensure he understood the rules & expectations, and then we progressed as necessary to things like timeout and suspension of privileges. On a few occasions, we had to permanently remove an external influence or remove him from a detrimentally influential environment. Had he continued this bad behavior into his late teens, we would probably have considered something like military or reform school.

 

Fortunately, though, he was just going through "the terrible twos" and was a well-mannered person again by the time he was about four.

[dawei]

~~~ ADMIN MESSAGE ~~~

 

Simple_Jack is suspended for 2 days as we consider further action or not.

 

He posted a rather crude/rude pic when we are trying to ask people for a discussion on improving this section.

 

~~~ / ADMIN OUT ~~~

 

 

SJ is indefinitely suspended until we come up with a 'how long'... for posting a link to the same exact image he was suspended for before.

[idiot_stimpy]

What was the image dawei? Can you post it?

 

I didn't see any image that would have even warranted a warning let alone a suspension, hence why I think it is deleted.

[dawei]

What was the image dawei? Can you post it?

 

I didn't see any image that would have even warranted a warning let alone a suspension, hence why I think it is deleted.

 

 

The image is one of shoving something up your ass.

 

The original post of the image which result in a few days suspension was hidden.

 

After his return, he linked to it again. This was hidden as well.

 

GIven the topic and hope for serious discussion on improving an area which continues to concern staff, the insensitivity to want to insult through gross pictures is not acceptable.

[steve]

 

 

Sorry, steve! I realize I never replied to your question.

 

Well...

 

When my son was younger, we had some issues along these lines and we corrected his incivility by first talking with him to ensure he understood the rules & expectations, and then we progressed as necessary to things like timeout and suspension of privileges. On a few occasions, we had to permanently remove an external influence or remove him from a detrimentally influential environment. Had he continued this bad behavior into his late teens, we would probably have considered something like military or reform school.

 

Fortunately, though, he was just going through "the terrible twos" and was a well-mannered person again by the time he was about four.

Some folks seem to linger in the terrible twos here...

[forestofemptiness]

If we attempted to follow the words of the Buddha, that would be a start:

 

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

 

The challenge to the Buddhist would be to ask oneself, before posting:

 

1. Is it true?

2. Am I speaking affectionately?

3. Is this for the benefit of others?

4. Do I have a mind of good will?

[C T]

Im still waiting for the OP and Admin to further elaborate on what's presumed to be this massive 'problem' with the Buddhist sub-forum. List out all the main issues so that members can see what sort of overwhelming tasks you guys have in moderating this section of TTB. If this is not done, then i suggest renaming this thread so that a different message is implied. As it stands, it gives off a certain 'ill' energy, if you know what i mean.

 

Moreover, the lack of input from the OP suggests that starting this thread seems to have some unpleasant motive(s), unless otherwise justified.

 

Put up or cease with the false assumptions.

[Apech]

Im still waiting for the OP and Admin to further elaborate on what's presumed to be this massive 'problem' with the Buddhist sub-forum. List out all the main issues so that members can see what sort of overwhelming tasks you guys have in moderating this section of TTB. If this is not done, then i suggest renaming this thread so that a different message is implied. As it stands, it gives off a certain 'ill' energy, if you know what i mean.

 

Moreover, the lack of input from the OP suggests that starting this thread seems to have some unpleasant motive(s), unless otherwise justified.

 

Put up or cease with the false assumptions.

 

The thread was opened with the best of intentions because at the time we were getting many reports on topics in the Buddhist section. What surprised us was that although Buddhist principles should mean healthy argument could be conducted without getting personal ... people were not really conducting themselves in this way. Also some of the ideas expressed were not really Buddhist. As a moderator and a Buddhist I wanted to ask people to stick to some slightly stricter rules in this sub forum and also to move some content out of Buddhist and into General if it was attacking or critical of Buddhism. But as we do not normally moderate content in this way it would be a controversial move ... so we wanted to see what the membership thought of this idea. It could apply also to the Taoist sub where content which is not really Taoist could be moved to General.

[Creation]

Im still waiting for the OP and Admin to further elaborate on what's presumed to be this massive 'problem' with the Buddhist sub-forum.

How about constant back and forth bickering between the usual suspects, in most every thread? Constantly trying to one-up and correct each other, and "win" the argument? Pages and pages that are a complete waste of time to those not caught up in that particular drama?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Creation

[C T]

How about constant back and forth bickering between the usual suspects, in most every thread? Constantly trying to one-up and correct each other, and "win" the argument? Pages and pages that are a complete waste of time to those not caught up in that particular drama?

Some Buddhist debates which started in the early 1900s are still going on until today, with no resolution yet reached.

 

What advice on reformation have you to offer then, in order to neatly re-package this unruly slum of a place?

 

When you see posters coming on to make fun of Buddhism, denigrate Buddhist teachers, belittle the lineage and the practices, why do you stay silent? Why should you stay silent?

[GreytoWhite]

Close the Buddhist subforum down.

 

While I'm all for it I'd really rather not have the pollution from these posters enter into the main areas. Might want to just make it a subforum of The Pit...

[C T]

While I'm all for it I'd really rather not have the pollution from these posters enter into the main areas. Might want to just make it a subforum of The Pit...

Who are these polluting posters? Either you back up your statement with facts or i'd suggest you take your comment back.

[GreytoWhite]

I don't participate in this area of the Bums because I well recall the Buddhist flame wars. Absolutist remarks from many of those discussing the Buddhist topics seems to run rampant. Even your own response is illustrative of why I'd rather not be in here. Take my comment back? Or what? What a silly, defensive attitude, getting upset when I assert my opinion. Honestly, I'm finding myself slowly drifting away from the entirety of the community because of the lack of content overall.

[C T]

I don't participate in this area of the Bums because I well recall the Buddhist flame wars. Absolutist remarks from many of those discussing the Buddhist topics seems to run rampant. Even your own response is illustrative of why I'd rather not be in here. Take my comment back? Or what? What a silly, defensive attitude, getting upset when I assert my opinion. Honestly, I'm finding myself slowly drifting away from the entirety of the community because of the lack of content overall.

Its good you don't frequent this section of TTB because you obviously do not have much to offer in terms of Buddhist insights.

 

Why do you even bother to show up now, this one time, is it just to voice your disgust? Nothing positive to contribute?

 

Bye.

[GrandmasterP]

Some quasi ' Buddhist' boosters on here do not represent the very best of Buddhistic tolerance for sure.

Responding to perfectly valid points in the manner of a resentful adolescent or defensive kidult is both unnecessary and counterproductive to constructive discussion.

Good manners cost nothing.

Edited August 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Yeah, given that we all have our own opinions and understandings but when we start getting personal and start insisting that we are the only one who possesses the true truth all we are doing is asking for an argument. But that's the way religions are: The believer has the truth. Of course, there are about 80 different live religions right now so there are at least 80 different truths.

 

I'm pretty sure that the Buddha didn't teach argumentive and combative behavior.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

I'm pretty sure that the Buddha didn't teach argumentive and combative behavior.

 

Are you sure about that? From "Words of My Perfect Teacher"

 

As Atisa said:

 

The best spiritual friend is one who attacks your hidden faults.

The best instructions are the ones that hit those faults.

The best friends are mindfulness and vigilance.

The best incentives are enemies, obstacles and the sufferings of illness.

The best method is to not fabricate anything.

 

 

[Apech]

Are you sure about that? From "Words of My Perfect Teacher"

 

 

 

He also said give victory to the other and accept defeat for yourself. Giving quotes out of context does not help.

[Marblehead]

No, I'm not absolutely sure but based on my recall of what I read about Buddhism back in the 1980s Buddha taught love and compassion.

[C T]

That which the Buddha encouraged were ideals to be aimed at.

What Atisha pointed out as instructions were gateways toward those ideals.

[GrandmasterP]

So it's OK to act like a jerk along the road to enlightenment then?

How does that work?

Old Atishoo sounds like a bit of a dick if s/he did say that.

Edited August 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ralis]

So it's OK to act like a jerk along the road to enlightenment then?

How does that work?

Old Atishoo sounds like a bit of a dick if s/he did say that.

 

 

I attended many retreats beginning in 1988. And never have I seen so many adults whining and acting out. That includes many of Norbu's students.

[C T]

So it's OK to act like a jerk along the road to enlightenment then?

How does that work?

It works when the individual 'jerky' karma is exhausted. How else will it work?

 

Most people wont stop eating until full, and will start eating again when hungry.

 

You and i are no exception. Neither are the wise and the foolish.

 

For the wise, when hungry, they are mindful of that, and when full, they are mindful of that too. Seldom are they without correct aim. Its the aim that matters ultimately. If the aim is good, hitting the target becomes assured, and the task is achieved with little effort and with completeness, meaning there will be no residual mess (karma) to clean up after.

 

For the foolish, they sometimes neglect to differentiate between the two. Their minds occasionally drift to desserts even before starters are served. So their aims are many, and often hazy, even dispersed.

That doesn't mean they are jerks -- the way of cultivation becomes more open for such people.

[ralis]

It works when the individual 'jerky' karma is exhausted. How else will it work?

 

 

To blame karma on one's problems is shirking self responsibility.