Let's Talk about Fa Jin(發勁)

[GrandmasterP]

Sounds good.

Have to admit a lot of the 'theory' side in Bagua rather went over my head.

It was more the external MA that I enjoyed.

"Watch it, Train it, Do it" was about as far as I went.

Only really got into internal stuff when I came to QiGong later in life.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[steve]

From observation, regardless of the style, it is the amount of time one puts into the practice rather than the form as the dependent.

 

 

I know your stance has not changed for many years now (since i've interacted with you on TTB).

 

Actually, CD's stance changes constantly.

Wasn't it a few days ago that he posted that Jin would develop "in no time" if you did this or that?

 

The one thing that hasn't changed is that CD's approach to Taiji training appears to be to read, then post his ideas, then adjust them based on whether or not the criticism of others makes sense to him - no personal instruction, no training with others.

Maybe he practices the 24 forms.

 

If that is his choice, that's fine with me.

It is up to us to decide how seriously to take his posts.

No harm or offense intended, CD, but I do think it's valuable to face facts.

[ChiDragon]

Actually, CD's stance changes constantly.

Wasn't it a few days ago that he posted that Jin would develop "in no time" if you did this or that?

 

If that is his choice, that's fine with me.

It is up to us to decide how seriously to take his posts.

No harm or offense intended, CD, but I do think it's valuable to face facts.

 

Steve....

Didn't I make the correction....???

Sometimes, there are things that people use them as figure of speech. If one do not consider the correction has been made as the last resource but arguing with old facts, then one is either evasive, defensive or offensive rather than persuasive. I only deal with the latest of what one had said as the last resort and hope you'll do the same. I do speak with confidence. There is no need for me to be evasive, defensive or offensive but persuasive.

 

Let's stay with the flow and argue about what is Fa Jin rather than arguing something in the past. Let's move forward and see how much do we know about Jin and Fa Jin. I will know how much or less one knows by the words from one's mouth.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[spatha]

Chen Xiaowang fajin

 

[ChiDragon]

Thank you! spatha

This is the video, on Fa Jin, that I had done an extensive translation on this site.

[steve]

 

Steve....

Didn't I make the correction....???

Sometimes, there are things that people use them as figure of speech. If one do not consider the correction has been made as the last resource but arguing with old facts, then one is either evasive, defensive or offensive rather than persuasive. I only deal with the latest of what one had said as the last resort and hope you'll do the same. I do speak with confidence. There is no need for me to be evasive, defensive or offensive but persuasive.

 

Let's stay with the flow and argue about what is Fa Jin rather than arguing something in the past. Let's move forward and see how much do we know about Jin and Fa Jin. I will know how much or less one knows by the words from one's mouth.

 

Yes, you did make the correction.

I was simply pointing out my observation of how you are "learning" and attempting to teach taijiquan.

If I am inaccurate, feel free to correct me.

[steve]

Chen Xiaowang fajin

 

 

Nice demonstration of real fajin.

Very easy to learn the basic method, very tough to develop a high level of skill and effectiveness.

[Daeluin]

Tough mainly because people want things now, rather than waiting for the softness to become firmness an the firmness to amass over the course of a couple decades of cultivation work.

[ChiDragon]

Nice demonstration of real fajin.

Very easy to learn the basic method, very tough to develop a high level of skill and effectiveness.

 

What do you mean by the basic method.....???

What do you mean by to develop a high level....???

[ChiDragon]

Questions......
1. How does one develop Jin.....???
2. Can one develop Jin while learning Fa Jin simultaneously.....???

[Daeluin]

Questions......

1. How does one develop Jin.....???

 

By cultivation of the soft, and allowing it to build up into firmness.

 

 

2. Can one develop Jin while learning Fa Jin simultaneously.....???

 

Sure, one can gather and emit, back and forth. But the strength of the power depends on the strength of the gathering. I'm told real Jin only builds over long periods of time, and transforms over the years.

[ChiDragon]

By cultivation of the soft, and allowing it to build up into firmness.

 

 

Sure, one can gather and emit, back and forth. But the strength of the power depends on the strength of the gathering. I'm told real Jin only builds over long periods of time, and transforms over the years.

 

Yes, that is the concept of Yin/Yang and what Tai Ji is based upon.

 

How do you cultivate from the soft to build up into firmness.....???

Which comes first, Jin before Fa Jin or vice versa....???

Edited July 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

We practice slowly to cultivate the energy, and build up on the softness. Over time it naturally becomes firm.

 

How can someone emit what one does not have?

[ChiDragon]

We practice slowly to cultivate the energy, and build up on the softness. Over time it naturally becomes firm.

 

How can someone emit what one does not have?

 

So far, this is the most simple, direct and best response. :)

Edited July 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

 

What do you mean by the basic method.....???

How to do it

 

 

What do you mean by to develop a high level....???

Get good at it

[ChiDragon]

I went to visit the Tai Ji Competition today. I meet an advanced student and did some free style push hands. I was told that I do know how to Ting Jin(聽勁). Thus it was not a waste of time of my diligent practice, without a teacher to baby sit, after all.

Edited July 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

I went to visit the Tai Ji Competition today. I meet an advance student and did some free style push hands. I was told that I do know how to Ting Jin(聽勁). Thus it was not a waste of time of my diligent practice, without a teacher to baby sit, after all.

 

Congratulations - next step is to compete!

That will tell you a lot more than the student...

[ChiDragon]

Here is another event which took place there. After the advanced student decided to go back to watch the competition, he ask a white student to play with me. This student had practiced Tai Ji for ten years. When our hands come into contact, I know that he knew nothing about Dong Jin(懂勁) or Ting Jin(聽勁). I have spent no more than ten minutes explaining to him how to do it. Indeed, He knew how to Ting Jin in no time. Indeed, this is how I can learn by talking to some experienced persons collecting information and put them into application by my own intuition without spending hours with a teacher.

Edited July 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

Contact Improv is also great for developing Ting Jin.

[steve]

Here is another event which took place there. After the advance student decided to go back to watch the competition, he ask a white student to play with me. This student had practiced Tai Ji for ten years. When our hands come into contact, I know that he knew nothing about Dong Jin(懂勁) or Ting Jin(聽勁). I have spent no more than ten minutes explaining to him how to do it. Indeed, He knew how to Ting Jin in no time. Indeed, this is how I can learn by talking to some experienced persons collecting information and put them into application by my own intuition without spending hours with a teacher.

Great news!

Congratulations on your success.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Tao Bums,

This is my first post.

I'm practicing Taiji in the Old Yang style as taught by Erle Montaigue. Erle's Taiji emphasizes Fa Jin, Dim Mak, and realistic self-defence. To him, Fa Jin was for striking, not pushing... Because if you merely push somebody away, generally they come right back to you (now really mad). All right, it is conceivable that there are times when a good push may have its survival merit but I don't feel like going further into this right now.

In Montaigue's Fa Jin techniques, shaking the waist is the almost universal denominator! For example, if you were to punch with your right hand, your waist would first turn counter-clockwise, in the direction of the strike. But at the moment of impact, the waist sharply twists the other way. According to Montaigue, it is this counter action that “squeezes the Ch'i out of the Dantian” and into the technique. However, obviously, this will also reduce the time span the hand actually stays in contact with the target as well as the degree of penetration it can reach - which I think makes sense especially if a technique is aimed at the bony structures of an adversary's head, while on the body you may need more penetration to get the desired effect.

Now, what surprises me is to find this forth-and-back action of the waist so prevalent in Montaigue's system mentioned hardly ever in the Taiji literature outside this system - at least as far as I'm aware of it (but maybe somebody else here can navigate me to books or websites that do elaborate on it). I am curious also how other styles of Taiji handle this issue, as well as other martial arts such as White Crane Kung fu (i.e. Shaking Crane).

Any informations welcome!

Cheers,
Michael

[dwai]

Hi Tao Bums,

 

This is my first post.

 

I'm practicing Taiji in the Old Yang style as taught by Erle Montaigue. Erle's Taiji emphasizes Fa Jin, Dim Mak, and realistic self-defence. To him, Fa Jin was for striking, not pushing... Because if you merely push somebody away, generally they come right back to you (now really mad). All right, it is conceivable that there are times when a good push may have its survival merit but I don't feel like going further into this right now.

 

 

In Montaigue's Fa Jin techniques, shaking the waist is the almost universal denominator! For example, if you were to punch with your right hand, your waist would first turn counter-clockwise, in the direction of the strike. But at the moment of impact, the waist sharply twists the other way. According to Montaigue, it is this counter action that “squeezes the Ch'i out of the Dantian” and into the technique. However, obviously, this will also reduce the time span the hand actually stays in contact with the target as well as the degree of penetration it can reach - which I think makes sense especially if a technique is aimed at the bony structures of an adversary's head, while on the body you may need more penetration to get the desired effect.

 

Now, what surprises me is to find this forth-and-back action of the waist so prevalent in Montaigue's system mentioned hardly ever in the Taiji literature outside this system - at least as far as I'm aware of it (but maybe somebody else here can navigate me to books or websites that do elaborate on it). I am curious also how other styles of Taiji handle this issue, as well as other martial arts such as White Crane Kung fu (i.e. Shaking Crane).

 

Any informations welcome!

 

Cheers,

Michael

Hi Michael,

 

IMHO, the difference between pushing and striking is in the nature of the power being used. Long power is usually pushing, short and cold power are striking. Because an explanation I've heard is that long power is like giving one tug to a long rope...a solitary, slower wave results in such a tug. Long power is like that...so a single pulse of jin (in fa jin) affects the opponents, thereby resulting in his/her being uprooted and physically moved.

 

Short power is like a rapid fire series of short pulses, resulting in a dense waveform, will both physically uproot the opponent as well as cause damage to him/her internally (if the right amount of power is applied).

 

Cold power is like an explosion inside the opponent, and applied power literally explodes within their body. When applied with sufficient power, it can stop hearts, explode organs etc.

 

My sifu tells that long power, short power are easier to cultivate. Cold power is hard. There are other powers that are possible, but only a few know how to do this.

Edited July 24, 2014 by dwai

[Marblehead]

Personally, rather than a push and strike I would pull and hug whenever possible.

[Ish]

Oh I've had experience that doesn't need intuition. It is called developing Ting Jin and Tong Jin. I know what I know because of firstly, personal direct experience.

Second, what my teacher taught me (and his teacher taught him) besides many other fellow taiji brothers/sisters who learnt (are learning) in our system is corroborated experientially.

 

Not a single thing my teacher has told me has not come true - everything he said has happened exactly how it happens (despite my initial skepticism).

 

If you can't understand Qi, how can you understand Jin? How can you know the relationship between the two?

 

Enough said...I wasn't really interested in debating you. I know your stance has not changed for many years now (since i've interacted with you on TTB). I was sharing this information for the benefit of those who might be interested in knowing about this.

 

The rest, as they say, lies in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

 

Dwai, i have a question about temple style tai chi if that's OK:

 

Do you have Zhan Zhuang as a training method in your style? I was wondering how temple style views this as a method to developing Jin, as compared to something like condensing breathing.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Ish

[dwai]

Dwai, i have a question about temple style tai chi if that's OK:

 

Do you have Zhan Zhuang as a training method in your style? I was wondering how temple style views this as a method to developing Jin, as compared to something like condensing breathing.

We do extensive zhan zhuang. In fact, many of our advanced practices are standing practices, that we do for long periods of time.

 

Master Liao has some of these documented in his latest book (although he calls these Chi Gung, they are the basic standing practices we start with) -- http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Your-Life-Energy-Well-Being-ebook/dp/B00AJSI7FI/ref=la_B001K8IR56_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406213848&sr=1-3

 

Also, since we do single form practice, every single form is done repetitively, then there are some specific ones that we do in static posture (e.g.: tai chi stance - aka embrace the tree, raised hands stance, golden rooster, etc). Even in the static posture there are variations in how we approach them. Sometimes we approach them to expand our energy, sometimes we approach them to focus on internal flow, sometimes both (with varying degree of nuances that sifu introduces as he deems appropriate for us).

 

Even condensing breathing is a zhan zhuang practice...because there is no physical movement (or practically none) - and don't go by BS material by a notorious pretender on youtube whose name rhymes with mary slyman. The practices aren't anything like that...

Edited July 24, 2014 by dwai