Cultivation of the Mind

[steve]

I prefer more specific questions. On the other hand, this wide-open question implies I can say just about anything.

 

"Intimate contact of deep knowledge" is just a manner of speaking. So let's look for some hidden flaws there.

 

"Intimate" implies we are sometimes estranged from the primordial knowledge. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

"Contact" implies there are two things touching. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

"Deep" implies there is something behind the suggestive appearances. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

"Knowledge" implies a possibility of ignorance as a distinct state of mind in its own right. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

Fair enough, I won't derail this thread.

Perhaps I will have an opportunity to learn more of your experiences in time.

I suspect they were significant for you.

[ChiDragon]

Hmmm... if the point is the discussion, then I'd like to discuss after all the material is presented.

 

The pressure of anger should not be held, that will create blockages and health issues. The pressure of anger should be dissolved. The cause of the anger should be investigated and also dissolved.

 

The term 修行(cultivation) is attached to a Taoist for life. To a Taoist, everything has a flavor of cultivation. The initial practice was recommended to to be the cultivation of the mind. The pressure of anger is the worse thing which could happen to a person. Yes, you are right abut that anger can create heath issues and it should be dissolved. However, in the cultivation of the mind was just that by suppressing anger but not to be held. As you'd said, the cause of the anger should be investigated and also dissolved. There is a reason to everything. A good reason with great tolerance is a good agent for resolving the most difficult human issues.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think there is a connection to the fact xing is translated as "nature" in Taoism as well as in Cha'an Buddhism. When Bodhidharma says to "see your own nature" he is also using the term "xing."

 

In the following you will see the comparisons between mind (xin, heart-mind) and nature (xing).

 

"Buddhas of the past and future only talk about this mind [heart-mind, xin]. The mind is the Buddha, and the Buddha is the mind. Beyond the mind there’s no Buddha and beyond the Buddha there’s no mind. If you think there is a Buddha beyond the mind’, where is he? There’s no Buddha beyond the mind, so why envision one? You can’t know your real mind as long as you deceive yourself. As long as you’re enthralled by a lifeless form, you’re not free. If you don’t believe me, deceiving yourself won’t help. It’s not the Buddha’s fault. People, though, are deluded. They’re unaware that their own mind is the Buddha. Otherwise they wouldn’t look for a Buddha outside the mind.

 

Buddhas don’t save Buddhas. If you use your mind to look for a Buddha, you won’t see the Buddha. As long as you look for a Buddha somewhere else, you’ll never see that your own mind is the Buddha. Don’t use a Buddha to worship a Buddha. And don’t use the mind to invoke a Buddha."

 

---

 

"People who don’t see their nature and imagine they can practice thoughtlessness all the time are lairs and fools. They fall into endless space. They’re like drunks. They can’t tell good from evil. If you intend to cultivate such a practice, you have to see your nature before you can put an end to rational thought. To attain enlightenment without seeing your nature is impossible."

[Marblehead]

"People who don’t see their nature and imagine they can practice thoughtlessness all the time are lairs and fools. They fall into endless space. They’re like drunks. They can’t tell good from evil. If you intend to cultivate such a practice, you have to see your nature before you can put an end to rational thought. To attain enlightenment without seeing your nature is impossible."

I just wanted to highlight this part of the post.

[ChiDragon]

I think there is a connection to the fact xing is translated as "nature" in Taoism as well as in Cha'an Buddhism. When Bodhidharma says to "see your own nature" he is also using the term "xing."

 

 

 

 

From a linguistic and philosophical point of view. I can only see "nature" as the character of an individual like the nature in "see your own nature". One's nature is only reflects the spirit of the mind. Hence, I can only see that "nature" is a good implication for "Xing" but not a good translation. It seems more proper to say the "cultivation of the mind" rather than the "cultivation of the nature".

 

Peace......

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Well, here's another passage which might help explain what Bodhidharma means by xing.

 

"To find a Buddha all you have to do is see your nature. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run around all day looking somewhere else, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain.

 

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion.

 

If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand."

 

I can only surmise from my prior knowledge, and reading this, that "the truth is there's nothing to find" may be referring to "dependent origination/emptiness/form is emptiness, emptiness is form," and that seeing our original nature is seeing emptiness. However, I'm neither a Buddha nor a student of a Buddha, so, who knows (zen koan not intended...)?

[Daeluin]

Seeing your nature is all about understanding your particular perspective within oneness.

 

If oneness were the mountain top, nature is the particular side of the mountain you're on.

Person A is on the est side of the mountain.

Person B is on the west side of the mountain.

They communicate with each other, but have trouble understanding each other's perspectives... something is off, something is backwards.

 

In life we cultivate ourselves to communicate in common languages and concepts, so we can all understand each other despite being so different.

 

Learning to see our nature, is learning to see the whole, and how we are shaped differently from the whole, so we may connect completely to the whole and dissolve our nature.

 

When we do this, the mind is gone. It is no longer distinct from oneness, no longer remembers it's fondness for pizza or how it prefers to define xing or ming.

 

If you've experienced the feeling of xing ming unity, or entered the opening of the mysterious pass, you understand this. If you haven't, you're not seeing your true self.

 

I agree with goldisheavy... a teacher isn't necessary. However... I was caught in my mind, and my teacher helped me clear my mind and experience many things my previous mind could not fathom.

 

A master isn't just a teacher. They are a highly cultivated energy person. As you do energy work in their presence, your energy wants to evolve and will come to resonate with the master's energetic state. Not to mention the benefit of being in a class doing the same energy work in sync with others. It's similar to a group of animals in motion together. They harmonize and support each other... birds flying in sync together do less work than birds flying separately.

 

Two person training is interesting, as it allows you to work with the unexpected. Even when you are both trying to harmonize with each other, it is not easy, and very developmental. It requires the cultivation of nature and the surrender of the ego. One must be spontaneous and flow and listen with the intuition, not the mind.

 

Regardless, of whether someone trains with others, the conditioned human mind is always a trap. It is the servant to the mind of tao, but most humans make it the master.

 

ChiDragon, do you communicate with your spirit guides and ancestors? They can teach you as well. Best of luck in the continuous evolution of your cultivation. I fully trust you to proceed in the manner that is best for you.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon, do you communicate with your spirit guides and ancestors? They can teach you as well. Best of luck in the continuous evolution of your cultivation. I fully trust you to proceed in the manner that is best for you.

 

 

daeluin....

Thank you.....!!! Since my spirit is part of me, I suppose I do communicate with its guides. I would say that I have learned from the past of the ancestors while they were alive. Since, they are no longer here, I would say they are still teaching me from memory.

 

 

@MH....

Your Buddhist philosophy is welcome here......

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

Good point. Of course we all communicate energetically with our spirit guides.

 

I suppose I was asking more if you change based on their advice, follow where they lead, surrender to the work they lead you to without judging it with your mind. True, we unconsciously are led by them in many ways. But do you consciously interact with them? They have lessons for us, when we're ready to trust them. I'm still working on this, but boy do I feel them.

 

No need to answer in a round-about way. I already know you are clever and your mind is able justify its attachments in any way you want. The essence of all of this is about trust and surrender to growth and vertical change. Open your heart, don't lock it away in fear. We love you.

 

Edit: Didn't mean to tell you what to do, or imply I know the state of your heart. Reminding myself to trust you to do what's right for you.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Daeluin

[Marblehead]

Regardless, of whether someone trains with others, the conditioned human mind is always a trap. It is the servant to the mind of tao, but most humans make it the master.

I liked your post even though I disagree with this and the need to dissolve our nature.

 

I doubt that our mind can ever be unconditioned. But we can keep it clean so that it reflects perfectly what is presented to it.

 

But I would agree that we should dissolve those aspects of our (conditioned) nature that are not serving us well. Then we can live from the heart (soul) instead of from the conditioned mind.

[Marblehead]

@MH....

Your Buddhist philosophy is welcome here......

Hehehe. I tried to be a Buddhist. It didn't work.

[Marblehead]

... and surrender ...

But I'm still not going to surrender.

[Vitalii]

 

From a linguistic and philosophical point of view. I can only see "nature" as the character of an individual like the nature in "see your own nature". One's nature is only reflects the spirit of the mind. Hence, I can only see that "nature" is a good implication for "Xing" but not a good translation. It seems more proper to say the "cultivation of the mind" rather than the "cultivation of the nature".

 

I consider that "cultivation of the mind" is not a good translation, because then we can not see essence of Daoism.

 

Xin (心) - ordinary heart-mind is characterized by emotional and intellectual turmoil

Xing (性) - Innate nature or original nature

 

Xin and Xing are not the same.

Xing is not ordinary heart-mind.

Adepts need to cultivate their Original Nature (Xing) and to become free from emotional and intellectual turmoil and we can say that they no longer have a ordinary heart-mind (Xin).

That is why in Daoism, the purified and awakened condition of the heart-mind is sometimes spoken of as being “without a heart-mind” (wuxin 無心) or as the “dead heart-mind” (sixin 死心).

[Vitalii]

Use of ordinary mind-consciousness (心) to comprehend the Original Reality is nonsense, since the original reality is beyond ones understanding and comprehension.
The Original Reality can be comprehended only by the Original Spirit. The tradition says about going beyond the ordinary finite mind, and that Dao cannot be comprehended by use of reflections or other functions of ordinary mind-consciousness (and anything associated with them).

[ChiDragon]

I will not argue about the definition at the moment. This thread is not about what are the possible definitions of Xing but how do you cultivate your mind. Perhaps, you all may think differently about the meaning of the "cultivation of the mind" is all about some place along this thread. Of course, you may jump in with you opinions at anytime. However, I would like to ask you to hold on them until the full presentation is complete. It is because this thread may answer your questions already when it is done.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The DCXM is a multi-practice procedural routine. At least, it includes the following activities:

1. Rational activities are reading, learning, introspection, self image and pursuit a goal in life, should have a lucid understanding all of the above.

2. The cultivation of moral conduct activities are to broaden one's wisdom, be harmonious with public relationship, and to have a merciful heart.

3. Physical body cultivation activities includes cure illnesses, 气轼(?), exercise, having nutritional foods and good living habits. Don't be avaricious and go beyond one's ability but only do whatever is suitable for oneself.

 

The actual activities in society, the Neidan-ist insisted the cultivation should be done externally and internally, not just to cultivate the Xing Kung and Ming kung; but also should help all the living beings, sacrifice with painstaking to benefit others, participate and be active in society, to be virtuous. Let the actual effect of DCXM be revealed in society. The above list of the activities ought to be combined and interact accordingly and randomly rather than carried out mechanically.

 

Those who are outside of the Taoist Religion(Taojiao) may be unintelligible or comprehend the high cultivated level of the religious mystery. However, most people may enhance their wisdom by absorbing the principle of the DCXM to be a better person, in handling personal affairs, and invigorate their bodies. As a result, all that will make our lives to be more healthier and wonderful.

 

Now, finally all the general stuffs are out of the way. It is time to go into the core of the thread. The cultivation of the mind which is the first half of the DCMX. As we can see that items numbers 1 and 2, as indicated in red, have something to do with the mind. There is another important thing which has not mentioned here. It is the Taoist meditation. Taoist meditation is the initial practice for the cultivation of the mind as well as the body. It fits the description, exactly, for the DCXM. It purifies the mind as well as enhancing the internal function of the body.

 

The Taoist meditation is different from an ordinary meditation. The Taoist Meditation purifies the mind, regulates the breathing and vitalizes the body. The Taoist meditation includes a special breathing method which is called 吐吶(tu-na) which the ordinary meditation does not. The TM purifies the mind by going into a state of emptiness. TM regulates the breathing to improve the respiratory system to be more efficient. After the purification of the mind and the regulation of the breathing, the vitalization of the body will take place internally and spontaneously.

 

 

[goldisheavy]

Use of ordinary mind-consciousness (心) to comprehend the Original Reality is nonsense, since the original reality is beyond ones understanding and comprehension.

The Original Reality can be comprehended only by the Original Spirit. The tradition says about going beyond the ordinary finite mind, and that Dao cannot be comprehended by use of reflections or other functions of ordinary mind-consciousness (and anything associated with them).

 

This strong bifurcation of function and strong polarization of ordinary and extraordinary is not always necessary. Sometimes people get so stuck to the ordinary, that they need to be told that the ordinary is crap and has little value. This can sometimes be helpful in some circumstances, but not always. On the other hand, some people cling to the extraordinary so hard, and they keep conceptualizing extraordinary functioning to be so remote and mysterious that they make it into some highly desired unobtanium. That's also bad.

 

If you look at the yin/yang symbol it contains a very important clue. There is a seed of yin in the yang, and vice versa. So ordinary experience already contains extraordinary in seed form. And vice versa, extraordinary experience contains ordinary as a seed as well.

 

To begin experiencing extraordinary reality ordinary expectations, beliefs, habits need to be softened up, modified, or completely relaxed away. However, this is a gradual process without sharp polarities. It's not like a person just wholesale abandons their intellectual ordinary mind and hops into an extraordinary one. If a person believes they are doing this sort of hopping, such a person doesn't understand what mind is and how it functions.

 

At some point we have to move beyond the intellect. But anti-intellectualism is not how we get there. So long as the person believes their concerns have conceptual outlines and and the person believes genuine solutions lie in conceptualy delineated domains, they need to pursue contemplation to familiarize themselves more and more with the functioning of the disciminating and structuring mind. Once the person matures in this way, they will eventually, in the course of time, authentically and without prompting begin to understand the limitations and the paradoxes inherent in any system of delineations. At that point a movement toward the mysterious will gradually begin, but it won't look like abandonment of the intellect. On the contrary, people who have moved toward the mysterious in an authentic manner have insanely sharp intellects which only get sharper and sharper.

Edited July 16, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Vitalii]

Ma Danyang said:

“[The state of ] no-mind is not the same as the stupid mindlessness of cats and dogs. It means striving to keep your heart-mind in the realm of clarity and purity and being free of deviant states of consciousness. Thus ordinary people have no mind of clarity and purity, while Daoists have no mind of dust and defilement. But this is not complete mindlessness, and it is not like the condition of trees and rocks or cats and dogs”

[Daeluin]

In the first year of my training, I abandoned my thinking mind to an extreme. In great emptiness I greatly reshaped my energy self, and attained experiences of great union. However.... the extreme of change had its own ripples through time, like a sine wave. The attainments were the heights of the sine wave, and powerful dips into my shadow were the lows. Basically I had no center and only caught glimpses, and couldn't rely on the patterns of my mind to lead me in the right direction. All in all I discovered it needed time to stabilize, and that gradual progress (hex 53) was the key.

 

Now I am taking things more slowly, have stabilized my momentum, and can more easily discern when the ripples of my life begin to threaten the stability. Mostly my human mind is still the master, but more and more I gradually allow feeling of the mind-of-tao to dominate, so my human mind can become used to the interaction. My goal is to gradually allow the human mind to accept its role of servant and recognize how to stay in the back seat. As I progress, the cruft of the human mind is abandoned, only leaving the conceptual supports which allow it to attach without needing as much framework. I feel that at least for me, the launch into complete mind-of-tao needs to be gentle and effortless, so that I don't have to "tread water" with any force in order to maintain the state long enough for it to become permanent. That said, there is definitely use of strength being applied via internal martial arts, but following the same principles of stability and working towards effortlessness.

 

I like both of the above posts. goldisheavy I really like the essence of balance and gradualness you describe.

 

Oh also goldisheavy, do you have any more to add about the Zhuangzi stories?

Edited July 16, 2014 by Daeluin

[goldisheavy]

Oh also goldisheavy, do you have any more to add about the Zhuangzi stories?

 

Not particularly. Zhuangzi is one of my very favorite authors (or texts) of all time. I reread it once in a while to see how my understanding of it has changed over the years. It's one of those texts for me. I got a paper book translation of it at home.

 

To my mind almost every story in Zhuangzi has a common theme: ordinary assumptions we make about reality are stupid. Zhuangzi shows that our normal mindset which is characterized by an almost out of control obsession with bodily survival, reputation, status, propriety, and even righteousness and service to society, is much too narrowminded.

Edited July 17, 2014 by goldisheavy

[ChiDragon]

Back to the cultivation of the mind....

The initial purification is to reset the mind to a zero-state which is the state of emptiness. However, I would like to refer it as the mind in a vacuous state to distinguish from Buddhism. Since the mind is able to understand things, it was fed with many fallacies and fiction stories but less facts. A Taoist may consider the fallacies and fictions are contaminants to the mind. These contaminants must be eliminated as part of the process in the purification of the mind. It is a mantle cultivation to sort out the facts among the false information. The prerequisite is to get oneself educated with logical facts and scientific knowledge. One should be able to isolate the facts from the fallacies, instantly, as soon they are involve in a decision making. Knowing the facts and defending the truth with logical reasoning are invincible. With all that said, the mind must be purified and free of all contaminants by retaining all the known facts. Therefore, to a Taoist, the purified mind is considered to be a "true mind".

Surprise.....!!!

[Daeluin]

Back to the cultivation of the mind....

 

The initial purification is to reset the mind to a zero-state which is the state of emptiness. However, I would like to refer it as the mind in a vacuous state to distinguish from Buddhism.

 

The mind of tao is not vacuous.

 

Since the mind is able to understand things, it was fed with many fallacies and fiction stories but less facts. A Taoist may consider the fallacies and fictions are contaminants to the mind. These contaminants must be eliminated as part of the process in the purification of the mind. It is a mantle cultivation to sort out the facts among the false information. The prerequisite is to get oneself educated with logical facts and scientific knowledge.

 

I agree it is helpful, but not necessary, to have clarity on the "knowable way" to help align oneself with the natural way. In any case one does this by:

 

The pursuit of learning is to increase knowledge day after day.

The pursuit of Tao is to decrease knowledge day after day.

 

Hu Xuezhi, TTC, 48

 

 

One should be able to isolate the facts from the fallacies, instantly, as soon they are involve in a decision making.

 

Yes, but the knowledge based mind can't do it instantly. It takes time to process knowledge. The mind that is "empty" discerns truth without attached knowledge. The "empty" mind is only empty in the sense that it is not attached to itself and in turn blocking it from receiving the knowledge of heaven.

 

Knowing the facts and defending the truth with logical reasoning are invincible.

 

How's that working out for you? I'm serious. Your defense of the truth you attach to in this very thread seems to have cause you a bit of stress and the necessity of dealing with the pressure of anger.

 

With all that said, the mind must be purified and free of all contaminants by retaining all the known facts. Therefore, to a Taoist, the purified mind is considered to be a "true mind".

 

Known facts are still contaminants and also must be emptied. Oddly enough, one need not even retain language; should one need to speak using language, the knowledge of heaven provides in the moment.

 

Surprise.....!!!

 

[ChiDragon]

The pursuit of learning is to increase knowledge day after day.

The pursuit of Tao is to decrease knowledge day after day.

 

Hu Xuezhi, TTC, 48

 

Chapter 48 - Rule with Wu Wei

1. In learning, knowledge increases daily.

2. In seeking the Principles of Tao, one's desires are lessen daily.

3. Lessen and more lessen.

4. Until reached to the state of Wu Wei.

5. Being Wu Wei then there is nothing that cannot be accomplished.

6. Ruling the world always with no accomplishment,

7. Or with multifarious decrees.

8. Then, one is not suffice to rule the world.

 

 

Note: This is the translation and interpretation from the native knowledgeable scholars.

Edited July 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

Yeah, looking over the discussion on 48 I see there are many different interpretations of these two lines.

 

Gotta say though... this text speaks on things like the mysterious pass, and I prefer reading a translation by someone who has experience with the mysterious pass.

 

Edit to ChiDragon's post below: And hence I prefer reading the translation I quoted, as the translator is a teaching Master. Additionally he is a teacher of one our own members, who has posted extensively and greatly expanded on the inner alchemical perspective and definitions of the teachings found within the quoted book. I think it safe to assume experience with the mysterious pass is transmitted in this translation.

 

But no matter ChiDragon, translate it how you like. The concept remains intact - when conceptual attachments, however "proven" they may be, rule over the mind of tao, the human mind is the master. When even proven conceptual attachments do not rule over the mind of tao, mysterious happenings unfold and one trusts and connects with the tao in a full embrace. The seed of the human mind remains useful, but does not control the Sage.

 

Perhaps the human mind says "you must eat to survive" but the mind of tao says "don't eat now", and for many days the Sage abstains from food. And thus is not poisoned with the others. Crude example.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

I wish you'll find someone real soon.

Edited July 17, 2014 by ChiDragon