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Nocturnal Emission Prevention Techniques


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#17 Antares

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:04 AM

That is true according to western medicine lol

Will you give a link where it is stated that NE ALONE is feature of kidney def.? I only find info that it is not normal when goes along with back pain, fatigue, headache, joint ache, impotence, stomach bloating...  



#18 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:14 AM


Yes, NE is not healthy was just a myth from the ancient Taoists who thought they were loosing Jing. Loosing Jing will cause them to shorten their lives for longevity.

@ dmattwads...I believe in western science(not medicine) more than the concepts in the TCM.

 

That's fine. Ironically most of my friends I hang out with do not go to my school and are totally western and totally skeptical of eastern lol, who'd-of-thunk-it. Of course western science / medicine does not believe in qi, yin, yang, jing, ect... either. I had started off pre-med biology and worked for several western doctors and in a hospital because I wanted to help people, but became extremely disillusioned with the pharmaceutical industry (itself and its products).   



#19 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:17 AM

Will you give a link where it is stated that NE ALONE is feature of kidney def.? I only find info that it is not normal when goes along with back pain, fatigue, headache, joint ache, impotence, stomach bloating...  

Sure. The cause is given under Etiology and Parthenogenesis

 

http://www.acupunctu...octemission.htm



#20 Antares

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:20 AM

That's fine. Ironically most of my friends I hang out with do not go to my school and are totally western and totally skeptical of eastern lol, who'd-of-thunk-it. Of course western science / medicine does not believe in qi, yin, yang, jing, ect... either.

 

Yeah, but you have to study it very carefully. I could not find any info that NE WITH SEX. DREAM is NOT normal.

It is not normal when happens WITH NO sex. dream  and along with other symptoms. Such as:

 

 

 

A nocturnal emission is an involuntary discharge of semen during sleep, usually accompanied by spiritlessness, soreness and weakness of lumbus and knees, dizziness, tinnitus, palpitation, insomnia, etc. This disorder, occurring in cases of neurasthenia, prostatitis, spermatocystitis and other chronic diseases in modern medicine, may be differentiated and treated as mentioned in this section.

http://www.acupunctu...octemission.htm


Edited by Eugene, 03 May 2013 - 06:20 AM.


#21 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:30 AM

 

Yeah, but you have to study it very carefully. I could not find any info that NE WITH SEX. DREAM is NOT normal.

It is not normal when happens WITH NO sex. dream  and along with other symptoms. Such as:

 

 

 

http://www.acupunctu...octemission.htm

 

Yes, I guess they said "usually" to cover their ass lol, cause there is like the 1% other explanation but its even more weird than the Yin def. one, so usually never mentioned. lol



#22 ChiDragon

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:45 AM

.......Of course western science / medicine does not believe in qi, yin, yang, jing, ect... either. I had started off pre-med biology and worked for several western doctors and in a hospital because I wanted to help people, but became extremely disillusioned with the pharmaceutical industry (itself and its products).   


The problem with the term "Qi", in the west, only has one definition as "energy" and refused other possible definitions. Thus that is their only hing up. "Jing" is an ambiguous term, even an ordinary Chinese still couldn't come out with a definite explanation. Before the "semen retention", the original idea was "essence retention". However, once, it was mistakenly though that 精, Jing(essence) were semen(精液)  by some Taoists. Since then, they came up with the idea about semen retention. Unfortunately, somehow the whole conceptual idea about "essence retention" were twisted to become "semen retention".

Note: The character 精 was used for essence() and semen(精液). It was easily to be mistakenly understood the difference between the two. I believe sperms were not known by the Taoists, at the time, because semen was only visible to them. Maybe that is why they came up with the idea of "semen retention".
 


Edited by ChiDragon, 03 May 2013 - 06:56 AM.

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#23 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:16 AM


The problem with the term "Qi", in the west, only has one definition as "energy" and refused other possible definitions. Thus that is their only hing up. "Jing" is an ambiguous term, even an ordinary Chinese still couldn't come out with a definite explanation. Before the "semen retention", the original idea was "essence retention". However, once, it was mistakenly though that 精, Jing(essence) were semen(精液)  by some Taoists. Since then, they came up with the idea about semen retention. Unfortunately, somehow the whole conceptual idea about "essence retention" were twisted to become "semen retention".

Note: The character 精 was used for essence() and semen(精液). It was easily to be mistakenly understood the difference between the two. I believe sperms were not known by the Taoists, at the time, because semen was only visible to them. Maybe that is why they came up with the idea of "semen retention".
 

 

I understand the point your making, but its important not to muddle two distinct concepts which are taoist retention practices and TCM for the lay person.

 

The taoists as you correctly stated did not want to loose semen during sleep or any other time so they could not loose jing, but rather convert that jing into higher forms of energy for spiritual practice.

 

The idea of nocturnal emission for the lay person from a TCM point of view is different. This perspective is not assuming someone is a taoist but just your average joe. All TCM is saying is that if you have a nocturnal emission then its because your kidneys don't have enough yin to hold it in.

 

Of course this discussion is not new lol. At my school my professors were talking about this and how in their experience 99.99% of every case they treated of nocturnal emission was due to kidney yin def. Nocturnal emission is common in the west, as is PMS which TCM also states is not normal. Now is suppose if you define normal as common then perhaps it is normal, but if you define normal as in the way your body is supposed to function in an optimal state then it is not normal. It's also been my personal experience as an intern (and all the other interns I know) that in every single case of nocturnal emission any of us has ever treated its ALWAYS with out exception been Kidney yin def. It's also noteworthy that in these cases of "normal" nocturnal emission that once treated they almost always stop.

 

Now I have one professor who is particularly interesting. He is from Taiwan and his family lineage in TCM goes back many generations. They have quite a reputation in Taiwan. Any how as I mentioned this debate is not new at all, and one day in class a few of the students who were of the "nocturnal emission is normal camp" were discussing with the professor all the same points that have been made in this thread today. Anyways they finally got him to concede that technically not every single case of nocturnal emission was always 100% from Kidney yin def. But the answer that followed did not make any of them feel any better about it lol. At first the professor looked hesitant and then told us to never tell patients this because they would think we were nuts. He said that there are a few cases where a patient will have nocturnal emission but when you check out their Kidney yin it is fine. He said in this case sometimes the patient is the victim of a succubus attack at night. Apparently the succubus wants to steal the mans jing so it has sex with the man while he is sleeping. He said in Taiwan this is considered very serious, but again emphasized that this is very rare and to not worry about it. 

 

But personally I have as of yet to see a man who has nocturnal emissions who does not have Kidney yin def.    



#24 xor

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:42 AM

A little OT but to comment on the succubus thing, medieval europeans often thought that nocturnal emissions were caused by succubi, a type of demon that feeds on spirit of men and may result in weakening or worse. For women the demon was called incubus.


Edited by Všinš, 03 May 2013 - 08:15 AM.


#25 Antares

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:11 AM

Yes, I guess they said "usually" to cover their ass lol, cause there is like the 1% other explanation but its even more weird than the Yin def. one, so usually never mentioned. lol

I can not agree with you here. Saying this you admit that if example somebody has back pain it means that diagnose is the same - kidney def. LOL. And then you as doctor put this diagnose to a man and who knows how it will affect him. May be he will get drunk and kill somebody. I stand for careful study of such subtle things. You missed some points here IMO. Even this you should consider:

 

 

 

(a)Differentiation between the physiological emission and the pathologic emission: Nocturnal emission occurring once during a period of 15-30 days is considered physiological

This is already not kidneys

 

And 

 

(B) Identification of the diseased position: Generally speaking, the case due to overthinking or hyperactivity of prime-minister fire mostly involves the heart, while that due to the failure of holding the semen and not associated with dreams suggests the involvement of the kidneys.

 

But you do not bother LOL



#26 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

I can not agree with you here. Saying this you admit that if example somebody has back pain it means that diagnose is the same - kidney def. LOL. And then you as doctor put this diagnose to a man and who knows how it will affect him. May be he will get drunk and kill somebody. I stand for careful study of such subtle things. You missed some points here IMO. Even this you should consider:

 

 

 

This is already not kidneys

 

And 

 

 

But you do not bother LOL

 

 

 

lol its ok you don't have to agree with me. Though as far as your observation that Kidney def. can lead to lower back pain that is correct. 

 

As far as the comment about someone getting drunk and killing someone, I don't really understand what that is in reference to?

 

As far as the minister-fire of the heart, it still relates to the kidney. Technically there are two heart fires, the emperor fire of the heart itself and the minister (or prime minister fire) of the pericardium. Now the base of the minister fire is ming-men which has its base and origin in the Kidney, specifically the Kidney yang. So ideally yin and yang are supposed to balance each other, but if you have Kidney yin def. then proportionately you will have an excess of yang, often called deficiency fire as its not a true excess, but a proportional excess. Anyways this excess yang then stokes the ming-men fire of the Kidney which then rises to stoke the minister fire of the pericardium which surrounds the heart. 

 

This is the whole five element cycle of control. Ideally the Kidney water controls the Heart fire. If you don't have enough Kidney water (yin) your heart fire will blaze up. As the heart houses the shen (spirit) it is responsible for our dreams. So if one is having sexual dreams which lead to emission then on the surface this can be attributed to the heart fire (branch), but on a deeper level this is really the result of there not being enough kidney water to keep the heart fire in balance (root). Hope that makes sense.

 

Btw strictly from a personal experience perspective I don't understand nocturnal emission from the dream point of view, because if I ever have a sexual dream I get too excited and wake up before any release happens (typically I've been disappointed it worked out that way haha)



#27 RongzomFan

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:40 AM

There are so much Christian-style neuroses. 


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#28 Antares

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:41 AM

lol its ok you don't have to agree with me. Though as far as your observation that Kidney def. can lead to lower back pain that is correct. 

 

but you have to agree with facts.  :) and do not diagnose if you have only little knowledge on the subject.  ;)

i agree that you study and this is good. but when this is about statement on somebody health issue one should be careful. hope it is clear. i am not saying i am saying the truth and i only treat carefully such subtle things. 

 

lower back pain can be caused by many diff. factors. that is why there are other factors (symptoms) listed:

 

 

 

Differentiation between yin-deficiency and yang-deficiency: The case with dizziness, tinnitus, lumbago, red tongue and thready, rapid pulse is attributed to deficiency of kidney-yin

 

Did you check a patient with these symptoms?  :) It would be true if there are few of these ones.  ;)

 

 

 

This is the whole five element cycle of control. Ideally the Kidney water controls the Heart fire. If you don't have enough Kidney water (yin) your heart fire will blaze up. As the heart houses the shen (spirit) it is responsible for our dreams. So if one is having sexual dreams which lead to emission then on the surface this can be attributed to the heart fire (branch), but on a deeper level this is really the result of there not being enough kidney water to keep the heart fire in balance (root). Hope that makes sense.

 

This might be true but you have to consider other factors which I already mentioned above. First it can be just not proved theory and second psyche might needs to release some excess amount of sperm or to release the tension due to the semen retention for a long time. It depends how often it happens. And there is stated that:

 

 

 

fire mostly involves the heart, while that due to the failure of holding the semen and not associated with dreams suggests the involvement of the kidneys.

 

i understand that it is kidney issue if it happens without sex. dream. 

 

 

 

Btw strictly from a personal experience perspective I don't understand nocturnal emission from the dream point of view, because if I ever have a sexual dream I get too excited and wake up before any release happens (typically I've been disappointed it worked out that way haha)

you psyche might need to release the tension. i am not sure it is better to hold it. 



#29 Universal

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:03 PM

Thanks for the Dear Exercise info George. Definitely looks like it could help. Could you recommend a specific book from Stephen Chang where I could continue reading about this?

 

Harmonious Emptiness, do you know where I can find a good Chinese herbalist?

 

Dmattwads, good question. I have no lower back pain, but my upper back seems like it’s coming apart. I definitely think it’s caused by the loss of jing. Knees are fine, but I have always had one somewhat bad knee. Had night sweats last night. They’ve increased since all this started. Prior to this they were rare.

 

Just to clarify, NE has not been normal for me. I’ve gone six months without masturbation/intercourse with no NE more on several occasions. I never had them and now all of the sudden at age 33 they hitting me like the plague.

 

I don’t drink alcohol (sober for almost 9 years). I slip up and look at porn every few months or so. I started to reduce my meat consumption, but I think a lack of protein has lead to weakness in the back muscles so I’m increasing my consumption now. I was working out daily before all this started. Because of my back all I’m doing is one-hour walks every day.

 

I think western science/medicine and eastern science/medicine both have something to offer. As far as ejaculation goes, I prefer the benefits of keeping it in unless I’m in a committed relationship. Then, in moderation perhaps.

 

This feels like I’m being attacked by a succubus. I’m baffled.  

 

Dmattwads (again), you’re providing great information in general. Keep it coming my friend. Could you recommend a book where I could learn more about the kidney yin imbalance, etc.? BTW, I always used to wake up too!



#30 RongzomFan

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:20 PM

Whats wrong with porn and masturbation?


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#31 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:21 PM

Whats wrong with porn and masturbation?

who said something was wrong with it?



#32 dmattwads

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:23 PM

Thanks for the Dear Exercise info George. Definitely looks like it could help. Could you recommend a specific book from Stephen Chang where I could continue reading about this?

 

Harmonious Emptiness, do you know where I can find a good Chinese herbalist?

 

Dmattwads, good question. I have no lower back pain, but my upper back seems like it’s coming apart. I definitely think it’s caused by the loss of jing. Knees are fine, but I have always had one somewhat bad knee. Had night sweats last night. They’ve increased since all this started. Prior to this they were rare.

 

Just to clarify, NE has not been normal for me. I’ve gone six months without masturbation/intercourse with no NE more on several occasions. I never had them and now all of the sudden at age 33 they hitting me like the plague.

 

I don’t drink alcohol (sober for almost 9 years). I slip up and look at porn every few months or so. I started to reduce my meat consumption, but I think a lack of protein has lead to weakness in the back muscles so I’m increasing my consumption now. I was working out daily before all this started. Because of my back all I’m doing is one-hour walks every day.

 

I think western science/medicine and eastern science/medicine both have something to offer. As far as ejaculation goes, I prefer the benefits of keeping it in unless I’m in a committed relationship. Then, in moderation perhaps.

 

This feels like I’m being attacked by a succubus. I’m baffled.  

 

Dmattwads (again), you’re providing great information in general. Keep it coming my friend. Could you recommend a book where I could learn more about the kidney yin imbalance, etc.? BTW, I always used to wake up too!

 

Here is some basic Kidney Yin def. info. Keep in mind that you don't have to have all the manifestations as it can manifest in various ways. 

 

http://agelessherbs....yin-deficiency/

 

*Hmm as far as a book goes I'm sure any basic TCM book about foundations or diagnosis would have all of that in there. Not sure of one that just focuses on Kidney yin def. alone. 


Edited by dmattwads, 03 May 2013 - 01:25 PM.





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