79 replies to this topic

[cat]

The great thing is, that so many people have benefitted so much from what he has contributed. So many  people have opened up, thanks to him not  just 'quietly doing his own thing'.. thankfully there is room for many vibrations. If all of them were quiet, something would be out of balance.

[Reed]

The great thing is, that so many people have benefitted so much from what he has contributed. So many  people have opened up, thanks to him not  just 'quietly doing his own thing'.. thankfully there is room for many vibrations. If all of them were quiet, something would be out of balance.

 

Exactly. 

 

I have no doubt there are 'better' (whatever that means exactly) practitioners/masters knocking about quietly doing their own thing -- presumably Liu Hung Chieh was one -- but even if I was somehow able to find such a person they would never take me on as a student in a million years: I am just an average person looking to improve my health and, for my purposes, his water method stuff seems fine so far  (although only time will tell whether it's any good for me personally).

 

If it wasn't for people like him and his books my practice would never have even gotten off the ground lol

[Taomeow]

Ah the new age prescriptions of how a master "should" be.  The pigeon holes of pre-selected (by whom?..) qualities he or she must fit in in order to qualify in the eyes of, um, the angels.  Has nothing to do with the taoist tradition which calls for studying the nature of the Time and blending in or going against its flow consciously and wisely.  The tradition of "leaving the world and coming into the world," which means it's actually the same master who will be humble and invisible at times and forceful and visible at other times, depending on which stage of the process he's at.  "Leaving the world" is not a higher or next or superior stage.  It can be first, it can be intermediate, it can be last.  "Coming into the world" is not a lower or inferior stage.  One can proceed to come into the world after leaving the world -- usually it happens when the master has gained enough gong fu to benefit the world by coming into it -- sometimes forcefully -- and when the world is ready to benefit from what he or she has to offer.  There's ancient stories (some of them translated by Eva Wong in Tales of the Taoist Immortals) of arrogant masters who behaved like stars of their own show -- and then completed their human appearance and turned out to be real stars from heaven and departed there to shine in that show of "I'm a star" which also happens to be the simple truth of what they are.  They can't be invisible.  Stars shine!  Arrogantly, in your face!     
 
I looked at the clip and, even though I've no bagua and can only look through the eyes of taiji, I noticed that BKF is super soft, very fast the way you can only be when you have all your joints open, has an absolutely correct posture, is proficient in "the whole body is a hand" (notice how he turns his back into a "palm" at one point to push the opponent) -- in other words, what I'm looking at in no way contradicts what I've been told by very experienced fighters, who assert he is a formidable martialist.  The softness is amazing, I've only known one person in real life (much more overweight than Bruce) who is this soft (forty years of taiji...  an "invisible" master, doesn't teach anyone...  doesn't need to make money...  born into money, made more in completely unrelated areas...)  At this level of skill the bulk becomes a weapon, not a hindrance.  (The taiji tradition is to use what you have -- if you're skinny and small you use that -- perhaps by luring the bigger, taller opponent into uncomfortably low stances and getting him from where your small stature is an advantage...  if you're tall and long-limbed, you use a different approach...  if you're bulky, still another...  but everything can be turned into skill, your every physical trait can be cultivated into an advantage.)

[Gerard]

I get inspired almost to the point of tears just watching a real Bagua master effortlessly walk to the park to practice.

 

Agreed! Real Bagua softens your heart and opens the mind. There is no end to the opening either.

 

But some practitioners have difficulty leaving the ego behind (and become a stream-enterer), which explains why they never progress or end up giving up. Karma is the force behind it.

 

Anyway, watch Liu Jingru and you'll see how effortlessly this great Bagua man moves:

 

http://www.tudou.com...ew/MXsmmxcF4Sw/

Edited by Gerard, 20 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[dwai]

I want to point out that folks should not deride teachers based on hearsay. Not to deviate from discussing bkf, but there's someone on this forum who repeatedly claims that Bruce considers master Liao (waysun) as not authentic Taoist/tai chi master and that he's purportedly claimed that master Liao is a white crane guy. We have no way of corroborating these as facts (or whether someone like bkf actually made suh insinuations). Incidentally I came across a discussion on Bruce's blog or Facebook page where he indicated that he considered master Liao's book "the tai chi classics" to be one of the best and himself refers to it even now. That goes to show people (with whatever agenda) can make suspicious commentary on someone and ascribe someone else as having sajd so (to reinforce their statements) but as in this case was falsehood.

[snowmonki]

Dwai me ol mucka

 

I have no agenda. Read Bruce's 'Power of internal martial arts' and you can read his open opinion of Master Liao, which is not a negative one. However read the appendix in 'Opening the energy gates' which goes into problems having arisen from qigong practice. It is WELL known within Bruce's school and even by others that two of the examples in that chapter are concerning experiences that occured under Master Liao. He left the names out of publication out of respect, but he'll tell you who in person.

 

This has been public knowledge for decades.

 

"In 1970, year of the Ôsaka Expo, I [Marnix Wells] returned to Taiwan for the summer break. There I met Liao Weishan (Liao Waysun), then a student at the Political University and luminary of the Sunday taiji quan pushing hands arena at the Legislative Yuan. Liao came from a rural background of Springing Crane (Zong He), in Xiluo a traditional martial hotbed of southern Taiwan. Liao, a native Taiwanese, spoke like a radical firebrand, critical of the ‘internal martial arts’ scene, under the mainlander KMT government aegis, of which Zheng Manqing [Chen Man Ching](then teaching in New York) was the presiding if absent deity. Liao covertly challenged the prevailing mythology of invulnerability and the miracles of ‘softness’. He agreed to train me in jing ‘energy’ through hard pushing-hands, and guide me on a tour of internal masters in Taiwan." From Marnix Wells

 

Zong He (Shaking/Vibrating Crane) is a branch of Fujian White crane.

 

And that has nothing to do with anything from Bruce.

 

Believe me or not, I couldn't give a monkeys and it makes no difference to anything important.

Edited by snowmonki, 24 January 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[dwai]

Dwai me ol mucka

I have no agenda. Read Bruce's 'Power of internal martial arts' and you can read his open opinion of Master Liao, which is not a negative one. However read the appendix in 'Opening the energy gates' which goes into problems having arisen from qigong practice. It is WELL known within Bruce's school and even by others that two of the examples in that chapter are concerning experiences that occured under Master Liao. He left the names out of publication out of respect, but he'll tell you who in person.

This has been public knowledge for decades.

"In 1970, year of the Ôsaka Expo, I [Marnix Wells] returned to Taiwan for the summer break. There I met Liao Weishan (Liao Waysun), then a student at the Political University and luminary of the Sunday taiji quan pushing hands arena at the Legislative Yuan. Liao came from a rural background of Springing Crane (Zong He), in Xiluo a traditional martial hotbed of southern Taiwan. Liao, a native Taiwanese, spoke like a radical firebrand, critical of the âinternal martial artsâ scene, under the mainlander KMT government aegis, of which Zheng Manqing [Chen Man Ching](then teaching in New York) was the presiding if absent deity. Liao covertly challenged the prevailing mythology of invulnerability and the miracles of âsoftnessâ. He agreed to train me in jing âenergyâ through hard pushing-hands, and guide me on a tour of internal masters in Taiwan." From Marnix Wells

Zong He (Shaking/Vibrating Crane) is a branch of Fujian White crane.

And that has nothing to do with anything from Bruce.

Believe me or not, I couldn't give a monkeys and it makes no difference to anything important.

So we have bkf not referring to someone by name and yet the identity is "obvious"?

Did he actually tell YOU that he was referring to master Liao?

I have been studying under a direct student of master Liao and know for a fact that what is taught is authentic Taoist and tai chi training. Master Liao and Chen man Ching were chess buddies...and master Liao has praised Chen man Ching to my teacher quite extensively.

I only pointed out the master Liao case as a point that hearsay is not valid in many cases and even a harmless statement made by someone can be embellished till it has no resemblance to what was originally said after it passes down a few mouths...

And I can Assure you the pushing hands we do is not "hard" by any definition of the word. On the contrary our focus is to be as soft and relaxed as a feather...a very yin approach to pushing hands, making chance etc. we learn yang approach too but focus is on yin.

Edited by dwai, 24 January 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Dorian Black]

Dwai me ol mucka

 

I have no agenda. Read Bruce's 'Power of internal martial arts' and you can read his open opinion of Master Liao, which is not a negative one. However read the appendix in 'Opening the energy gates' which goes into problems having arisen from qigong practice. It is WELL known within Bruce's school and even by others that two of the examples in that chapter are concerning experiences that occured under Master Liao. He left the names out of publication out of respect, but he'll tell you who in person.

 

This has been public knowledge for decades.

 

"In 1970, year of the Ôsaka Expo, I [Marnix Wells] returned to Taiwan for the summer break. There I met Liao Weishan (Liao Waysun), then a student at the Political University and luminary of the Sunday taiji quan pushing hands arena at the Legislative Yuan. Liao came from a rural background of Springing Crane (Zong He), in Xiluo a traditional martial hotbed of southern Taiwan. Liao, a native Taiwanese, spoke like a radical firebrand, critical of the ‘internal martial arts’ scene, under the mainlander KMT government aegis, of which Zheng Manqing [Chen Man Ching](then teaching in New York) was the presiding if absent deity. Liao covertly challenged the prevailing mythology of invulnerability and the miracles of ‘softness’. He agreed to train me in jing ‘energy’ through hard pushing-hands, and guide me on a tour of internal masters in Taiwan." From Marnix Wells

 

Zong He (Shaking/Vibrating Crane) is a branch of Fujian White crane.

 

And that has nothing to do with anything from Bruce.

 

Believe me or not, I couldn't give a monkeys and it makes no difference to anything important.

 

I read that info in the internet too and that Frantzis had presented to his students a person with terrible health problems due to Fajin training as taught by Waysun Liao. And that Frantzis would have brought Liao from Taiwan to the USA in the 70's and would regret that now. I've never read more terrible BS!

 

That's the reason why I think that Frantzis is full of crap. Liao is beyond any reasonable doubt imo and one of the greatest taoist masters on the planet.

Also, I studied several videos where Frantzis demonstrates his quite impressive external abilities and he has no chi-power (internal power) whatsoever.

 

btw as far as I remember, I've read that shit on a blog of that Marnix Wells guy. Liao would have taught to Frantzis Fajin and after 3 months or so, Frantzis would have "broken bones left and right" on tournaments but the Fajin training would have slowly driven him insane so he would lose his compassion. After realizing that he would have quit that training. BS!

 

On the other hand, maybe it's all lies from Marnix Wells and Frantzis never told that BS!

Edited by Dorian Black, 25 January 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[Owledge]

Liao is beyond any reasonable doubt imo and one of the greatest taoist masters on the planet.

This is surprising coming from a Clyman fan. After all Gary Clyman is badmouthing Liao's teaching methods.

[Dorian Black]

This is surprising coming from a Clyman fan. After all Gary Clyman is badmouthing Liao's teaching methods.

 

Gary criticizes Liao's new DVD material that can be bought today from the taichitaocenter.

He never critcizes (or "badmouthes") Liao's great abilities and he even suggests to people on his website to buy Liao's old-school book "taichi classics"!

Edited by Dorian Black, 25 January 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Owledge]

During the two-day workshop I attended, he badmouthed Liao, claiming he stalls and gives people next to nothing so that they pay him big money without getting much in return, binding people to him like a cult, and that he, Gary, give people 'the real, powerful stuff' right in the beginning. A young man in the workshop hwo probably was relatively impatient regarding these things agreed with Gary and obviously became an instant admirer of him.

After all I've learned so far, it seems to me that Liao is doing things the traditional tough way, not luring people with 'instant power', but putting much importance on cultivating character and virtue first in order to balance the whole teaching, and Gary is a good example for what happens when you don't balance it - although cause and effect don't have to be clear. Maybe he had his peculiar personality before he learned from Liao and that was why he didn't like his approach.

 

I've skimmed the video of Frantzis where people commented about it that he's egomanic or self-aggrandizing, and if at all, it seemed VERY mild to me. Not in the degree where one would have to be worried. Telling anecdotes about ability and boasting about power are different if you pick up on the subtle details in personality expression.

Edited by Owledge, 25 January 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[dwai]

So we have bkf not referring to someone by name and yet the identity is "obvious"?Did he actually tell YOU that he was referring to master Liao? I have been studying under a direct student of master Liao and know for a fact that what is taught is authentic Taoist and tai chi training. Master Liao and Chen man Ching were chess buddies...and master Liao has praised Chen man Ching to my teacher quite extensively.I only pointed out the master Liao case as a point that hearsay is not valid in many cases and even a harmless statement made by someone can be embellished till it has no resemblance to what was originally said after it passes down a few mouths...And I can Assure you the pushing hands we do is not "hard" by any definition of the word. On the contrary our focus is to be as soft and relaxed as a feather...a very yin approach to pushing hands, making chance etc. we learn yang approach too but focus is on yin.

http://www.taichimas...and-meditation/

Read the comments on this page

Philip Hinton October 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm
I have been a student of Master Waysun Liao in Chicago for about 13 years. I am also a member of your Bagua Mastery program, which is superb. Master Liao teaches Taichi as meditation. You are right on, Master Bruce. Most people today study Taichi in a fashion similar to country line dancing. Step here, move there, wave hands now. I have found very few who teach the actual internal methods like you do. And it changes everything. Funny thing is, when you learn real Taichi as meditation, the martial art aspect is still there and strong. Its just not the focus. And you gain so much more. Keep up the great work that you do, Iâll be a devoted student!

[Reply]


Tai Chi Master Bruce Frantzis Reply:
October 10th, 2012 at 10:24 pm

Hi Phillip, Thanks for the comment. I reference Master Waysun Liaoâs book on the Tai Chi Classics and feel it is one of the best. Everything you say about the martial aspects still being there is true. In the revised edition of Power of Internal Martial Arts we added an entire chapter on Spiritual Martial Arts. Best, Bruce

[Reply]

Edited by dwai, 25 January 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Dorian Black]

During the two-day workshop I attended, he badmouthed Liao, claiming he stalls and gives people next to nothing so that they pay him big money without getting much in return, binding people to him like a cult, and that he, Gary, give people 'the real, powerful stuff' right in the beginning. A young man in the workshop hwo probably was relatively impatient regarding these things agreed with Gary and obviously became an instant admirer of him.

Having bought many of Liao's training DVD's (not private invitation DVD's) myself for over $700 (I guess), I agree with Gary's opinion.

More important, having bought Gary's entire Nei Kung system, I also agree with Gary's opinion that he gives you the powerful stuff instantly and completely. Therefore, you won't be dependant on him for the rest of your life.

But I think that several of Liao's (theoretical/not as training advice intended) books are great.

But again, Gary never doubts Liao's great internal power and achievement (and neither do I).

If someone wants to waste time and has no problem with probably never getting the powerful stuff, he shall feel free to follow Liao's school and to build virtue first!

 

I've skimmed the video of Frantzis where people commented about it that he's egomanic or self-aggrandizing, and if at all, it seemed VERY mild to me. Not in the degree where one would have to be worried. Telling anecdotes about ability and boasting about power are different if you pick up on the subtle details in personality expression.

I have no problem with someone because he is an egomaniac if he delivers what he promises.

Edited by Dorian Black, 25 January 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Mudryah]

Bruce is well knowledgable of the arts. I studied briefly with one of his students and it was as if I was talking with Bruce himself and learning. This is how well he passed down his skills to his students. They say you can measure how well a teachers is by his students and I must say it was an amazing experience. If you have read the book Esoteric Warrior which featured Bruce in it along with other MA practitioners, Bruce was the only person I was interested in but it was a short read. That book changed my life along with some other events.

Peace.

[Mokona]

Side note: I've heard of people whom feel more powerful, agressive or charismatic from chi kung, it empowers the personality. It is a side effect of the practices.

 

* Has anyone here practiced to a point where they feel they could give tips on BF's practices? It may turn to be even more constructive of an conversation if the effectiveness of practice was also discussed. Just a thought.

[idquest]

* Has anyone here practiced to a point where they feel they could give tips on BF's practices? It may turn to be even more constructive of an conversation if the effectiveness of practice was also discussed. Just a thought.

Here is a good discussion on BKF's curriculum:

http://dankleiman.co...ith-paul-cavel/