Trance and the Path

[RiverSnake]

In my understanding Trance is a tool used in almost all cultures and Traditions. Shamans call it Journeying, in the Western Tradition people go into Trance and explore Inner Worlds or Inner Space in order to make "Contacts" which can guide them on the path as well as meet there Guardian Angels, animal guardians, communicate with Deities and dead relatives, heal people with Fragmented Souls, visit the Big Library........etc

 

Although i have spent a lot of time learning how to lounge in the Emptiness through meditation and heal myself by opening channels and strengthening my energy body i have not spent much time playing in the Void and simply curious of what peoples experiences of playing in the Void have been and whats the value of learning and dedicating some time to Trance and Journeying?

 

How has using Trance been useful or not useful for you on your Path?

[GrandmasterP]

Gives me a headache does full trance so I don't do it.

Mediums have to do it in training and some take to it almost exclusively, most do not.

Not many full trance mediums on the circuit these days, in days gone by when I was a lad there were far more.

Fashions change, sitters tend to want eye contact and conversation with the medium these days.

'Overshadowing' (half entranced, half not) is better and most on here will have experienced that state now and again, often on awaking in the morning and before getting out of bed.

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Vmarco]

In my understanding Trance is a tool used in almost all cultures and Traditions. Shamans call it Journeying, in the Western Tradition people go into Trance and explore Inner Worlds or Inner Space in order to make "Contacts" which can guide them on the path as well as meet there Guardian Angels, animal guardians, communicate with Deities and dead relatives, heal people with Fragmented Souls, visit the Big Library........etc

 

 

Such trances, like most meditations, are distractions and diversions to keep one from waking up. As Lao-zu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

The reality is that perceived life is a trance, and all trance states obscure truth. Any quest or journeying should be to break through trance, especially the trance of object-ive reality.

 

"maybe I could tell you to cut of one ounce of your body everyday until you can answer the question 'What is True.' Any ounce, as long as it's an ounce. That should bring you quickly into focus. Light a fire under you. If you had to do this, cut off an ounce of your body every day, how much time do you think you would waste on meditation, on attending Satsung, (on shamanic journeying) or reading the latest spititual best seller? Not bloody much. You would soon become an enlightenment machine,...sleep and food would be reduced to barest minimums. Relationships and activities once deemed eccential, would be forgotten. You would enter into a burning mania of single-pointedness. Soon, anything other than the question, 'What is True,' would seem comically irrelevant."

Jed McKenna

 

 

Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

[silas]

Such trances, like most meditations, are distractions and diversions to keep one from waking up. As Lao-zu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

A classical Taoist follows the patterns of the Tao and inborn nature, and one who keeps to such a path is said to be in s state of wu-wei, functioning without intentional effort, moving without intentional action. To a classical Taoist, wu-wei is a persistent meditative state, similar to a trance EXCEPT that one retains awareness. Then one moves in harmony with the universe and achieves one's potential with minimal damage to the self.

 

Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching speaks of wu-wei many times. It is the recommended form of state-craft for sage-rulers who merely "take no action" and the people organize themselves.

 

“I take no action and the people of themselves become transformed.

I love tranquility and the people of themselves become righteous.

I disturb nobody and the people of themselves become prosperous.

TTC ch. 57; Wang, Keping, The Classic of the Dao A New Investigation, Beijing: Foreign Languages Press, c. 1998.

 

The LaoTzu recommends a type of mirror-mind meditation:

 

In concentrating your breath can you become as supple

As a babe?

Can you polish your mysterious mirror

And leave no blemish?

Can you love the people and govern the state

Without resorting to action?

 

TTC ch. 10, Lau, D.C, Tao Te Ching, New York: Penguin Books, c. 1963, p. 14.

 

The story of the 3 monkeys appears in the Chuang Tzu (repeated in slightly different form in the Lieh Tzu) but does not specifically refer to meditation. However, the ChuangTzu does talk about mirror-mind meditation, which it describes as a trance-state meditation:

 

Nanguo Ziqi sat leaning on his low table. He gazed at the sky and breathed gently, in a trance as if his soul had left his body. His disciple Yancheng Ziyou, who stood waiting before him, said, "How does it come to this? Can your body really become like a withered tree and your soul like dead ashes? Your appearance as you lean on your low table is not the same as it used to be.

 

Ziqi said, "Yan you've asked a good question, Do you know that I lost myself just now?"

 

Chuang Tzu, ch. 2. Wang, RongPei, Zhuangzi, Hunan: Hunan People’s Publishing House, c. 1999, p. 15.

 

In this passage about wu-wei from the ChuangTzu, the cook Ting follows the Tao. He practices wu-wei, with awareness:

 

Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now — now I go at it by spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants."

 

"However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground."</ul>

 

ChuangTzu, chap. 3. Watson, Burton, The Complete Works Of Chuang Tzu, New York: Columbia University Press, c. 1968, p. 50.

Edited December 19, 2012 by silas

[GrandmasterP]

Sounds good.

Overshadowing is much the same, being conscious but at the same time 'super' conscious and in touch beyond the temporal-physical.

When Fire walking for example.

[flowing hands]

I think one needs to look at firstly the idea of what trance is. Is it self stimulated by dance, drugs or deep meditation? This sort of trance comes from within and the journey there is all about what the mind can unfold about the self through images and playback. We must remeber the mind is the most powerful thing we posess, therefore here lies our great enlightener and deciever all in one. A very dangerous path we can tread.

 

The other trance is the one of spirit posession. This requires the posesser to have taken no drugs, done no meditation or to have danced around with rythmic drums etc. This way is more difficult because it is the inviting of a spirit to posess the body and the medium needs to be up to the task. Once posessed, in this way the medium does not know anything about what is happening, they have so to speak gone into a deep sleep, while their body is overtaken.

 

Most people have access to the first way, the second is much harder and more frightening.

 

Which is best IMO? the second, it is very reliable, for the source is not ones own deluded and muddled mind!!!

[Vmarco]

I think one needs to look at firstly the idea of what trance is. Is it self stimulated by dance, drugs or deep meditation?

 

For me,...dance, hand drumming, etc., have been valuable to take me out of the trance,...the trance of the 5 skandhas,...enable me to get beyond my human-ness (6 senses) and the delusion they crave.

[RiverSnake]

I think one needs to look at firstly the idea of what trance is. Is it self stimulated by dance, drugs or deep meditation? This sort of trance comes from within and the journey there is all about what the mind can unfold about the self through images and playback. We must remeber the mind is the most powerful thing we posess, therefore here lies our great enlightener and deciever all in one. A very dangerous path we can tread.

 

 

Indeed, the mind is powerful. However, i think when going into topics such as Trance through meditation a healthy distinction should be made between the Intellectual mind and going into deeper layers of the self (subconscious) as well as interacting with Beings on the Astral Plane.

 

If one does not have control of their monkey mind then you will not likely be able to get into a Trance state to begin with. Consciousness can be cleared and crystallized through cultivation and thus enable one to make distinctions between the monkey and others.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited December 20, 2012 by OldGreen

[Thunder_Gooch]

How has using Trance been useful or not useful for you on your Path?

 

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we are one with the universe. Our bodies naturally direct us to the emptiness. When we get sick, for example, the first place we go is not to the hospital, but to bed. When we sleep, we feel relaxed and peaceful. We bring our mind and body into the emptiness. Everybody does this automatic meditation without noticing it during sleep and periods of deep relaxation. Most of our daily energy blockages are opened and resolved in this way The deeper you go into the emptiness, the faster your body will heal. By practicing Qigong we go into the emptiness where we effortlessly balance the Yin and Yang, the female and male energy. As the balance of energy comes back, the body heals.

 

-Chunyi Lin creator of Spring Forest Qigong

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you are also not in meditation.

 

You must become like a baby in the womb, there and yet not there.

 

 

Meditation is like the borderline between sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

 

“Very difficult.”

 

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long periods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to

remember how.”

 

 

 

-The Magus Of Java

 

 

 

 

 

 

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

 

The Magus of Java (p. 52)

 

 

 

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline between sleep and waking, okay?"

 

-The Magus of Java (p. 56)

Edited December 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[thelerner]

A classical Taoist follows the patterns of the Tao and inborn nature, and one who keeps to such a path is said to be in s state of wu-wei, functioning without intentional effort, moving without intentional action. To a classical Taoist, wu-wei is a persistent meditative state, similar to a trance EXCEPT that one retains awareness. Then one moves in harmony with the universe and achieves one's potential with minimal damage to the self.

I think this cuts to the heart of what we want.

 

I think meditation is a means to itself as well as an indispensable training tool but not the final goal. Living in wu-wei is.

[Mark Foote]

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we are one with the universe. Our bodies naturally direct us to the emptiness. When we get sick, for example, the first place we go is not to the hospital, but to bed. When we sleep, we feel relaxed and peaceful. We bring our mind and body into the emptiness. Everybody does this automatic meditation without noticing it during sleep and periods of deep relaxation. Most of our daily energy blockages are opened and resolved in this way The deeper you go into the emptiness, the faster your body will heal. By practicing Qigong we go into the emptiness where we effortlessly balance the Yin and Yang, the female and male energy. As the balance of energy comes back, the body heals.

 

-Chunyi Lin creator of Spring Forest Qigong

 

 

 

In a chapter devoted to the cultivation of the bases of psychic power, Gautama the Buddha offered a practice in four parts, to wit:

 

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.

As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;

as below, so above: as above, so below:

as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.

Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society- more here)

 

Here's my attempt to describe this in daily life: Waking Up and Falling Asleep

Something I am writing now:

 

"In juggling, the juggler realizes the momentum and weight of each object as a contribution to their own sense of physical location, in order to relax the activity of throwing and catching; in practicing zazan, the sitter experiences the orientation and weight of any body part that crosses the mind as a contribution to the overall sense of a location of awareness in three-dimensional space, and by virtue of a sense of location of awareness the stretch and activity necessary to the relaxed movement of breath engages in all three directions.

 

...Gautama the Buddha described the inclusion of feeling in the present sense of location with an analogy about a bath attendant collecting moistened soap powder into a ball from the inside of a bowl:

 

 

“…as a skilled bath-attendant or (bath-attendant) apprentice, having sprinkled bath-powder into a bronze vessel, might knead it while repeatedly sprinkling it with water until the ball of lather had taken up moisture, was drenched with moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out but without any oozing. Even so… does (a person) saturate, permeate, suffuse this very body with the rapture and joy that are born of aloofness; there is no part of (the) whole body that is not suffused with the rapture and joy born of aloofness. While (such a person) is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute, those memories and aspirations that are worldly are got rid of; by getting rid of them, the mind is inwardly settled, calmed, focused, concentrated.” (MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

 

The lather-ball is an analogy Gautama provided for the feeling of what he described as the first meditative state.

 

The state that Gautama described with its characteristic “single-pointedness” of mind is a hynogogic state, a state between being awake and being asleep, and as such cannot be made to happen. In one of his lectures, the Gautamid emphasized that a lack of desire even for the attainment of meditative states was primary, declaring that with regard to these states “whatever (those who claim accomplishment) imagine it to be, it is otherwise” (MN III 42-45, PTS pgs 92-94). Nevertheless, his description of sprinkling a kneaded ball with moisture as soap particles are collected from throughout a vessel summarizes the relationship between a “single-pointedness of mind” and the contribution of a feeling of “rapture and joy” in the particulars where “no part of the body” is left out (“rapture and joy” is sometimes rendered “absorption and ease”, perhaps more readily imaginable with respect to the parts of the body).

 

Although the Gautamid described the setting up of mindfulness and the specific feeling of each meditative state, he made it clear that his practice both before and after enlightenment was “the intent concentration on in-breaths and out-breaths”. This he said was a particular instance of the more general “setting up of mindfulness”."

 

 

Hopefully I can do more work on this soon, for my own sake, you know! What I believe is a source of my actions, in the hypnogogic state, so it's important to use what I have of reason, as well as intuition. That's my take, anyway. I think it's possible that "with wits alert, with wits unhampered, (one) cultivates (one's) mind to brilliancy" is identically "sensory connections to our bodies fade"- in that the location where awareness takes place is unfettered.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Mark Foote

[Cheshire Cat]

Trance states cultivation is said to be Du-Yin cultivation. Du-Yin is the yin side of your consciousness, the guy who plays when you are sleeping.

 

It's like a state in which you talk to everyone, but you don't remember what you've just said.

It's known in chinese buddhism and daoism as well.

 

What are the benefits of cultivating such a state?

Well, it's a state in which one could perform supernatural feats, like mind-reading, shamanic journeying.

This is not a 100% reliable method. The most succesful people in this cultivation are called shamans and their abilities with the yin ghost is far beyond the ordinary mind.

 

In cultivating enlightment, one naturally develop such a thing, an illusory body, an emanation body which is invisible to everyone

This body can see distant place, but it cannot be touched by others.

 

The stage beyond this is the yang shen emanation body which is tangible and can move objects.

Edited December 21, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[silas]

Since people are talking about training in a trance state, here is how I would do it: with a flashing light, like a bicycle light or a dim strobe. The idea is similar to the old hypnotist trick of watching a shiny object on a string, but with a modern update. Just sit in the regular meditation position with eyes open. Set the light to flash at a comfortable speed that does NOT induce sleep but does relax. Then as you float, listen for insistent thinking and let it pass. Acknowledge unusually strong desires and let them pass. Always remain aware of your surroundings and your senses.

 

Warning: this type of training really can put one into a trance state, which means that if someone near you whispers suggestions, the subsconscious may receive them and one may enter into a form of unwanted subliminal conditioning. Train in a safe location. The purpose of trance state meditation is both to sense the Tao and the guidance of one's Te and inborn nature, but also to REJECT unwanted conditioning by remaining aware. The more often one meditates in an aware trance, the easier it can be. to enter a wu-wei trance state at will. Remember that in wu-wei, one must remain alert to dangerous or undesirable situations.

 

Lights with variable blink rate are not easy to find, so instead I recommend trying many lights to find one that flashes at a comfortable rate. Sometimes, a light with a certain color or more than one bulb or LED works better. Here are some examples of bike lights I have tried for wu-wei training.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2012 by silas

[Mark Foote]

 

Lights with variable blink rate are not easy to find, so instead I recommend trying many lights to find one that flashes at a comfortable rate. Sometimes, a light with a certain color or more than one bulb or LED works better. Here are some examples of bike lights I have tried for wu-wei training.

 

 

 

This looks interesting: dream machine

[GrandmasterP]

Allegedly (it was on the Simpsons but I heard it elsewhere too) there were some TV Manga cartoons shown on Japanese TV that sent some people off either into trance or epilepsy.

[Cat Pillar]

TV in general puts you into a kind of trance. Epilepsy can be caused by rapidly flashing lights, which a lot of anime has. Video games have been known to trigger epilepsy as well.

 

I find that the more I practice, the more I can move into what seems a trance-like state, or deep meditation. Focus on the dantian becomes so deep that other sensations start to disappear. I can't seem to maintain that state for very long yet, but that will come with practice.

[GrandmasterP]

Keep at it buddy. The more you do the easier it gets

[silas]

Here's an article about wu-wei training with information about entering a trance state with a hypnotic metronome:

 

Wu-Wei Awareness Training

[teknix]

[Thunder_Gooch]

....

I don't think 528 Hz DNA activation music will help induce trance teknix. Maybe you didn't post this sarcastically, if so accept my apologies.

Edited March 1, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Trances may have uses, but jhana is surely a better goal. Don't we want to be cultivating clarity, balance and precision, rather than du-yin states where we simply don't know how much of the experience is real and how much is warped by the contents of our subconscious? I would advise avoiding trances.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Trances may have uses, but jhana is surely a better goal. Don't we want to be cultivating clarity, balance and precision, rather than du-yin states where we simply don't know how much of the experience is real and how much is warped by the contents of our subconscious? I would advise avoiding trances.

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we are one with the universe. Our bodies naturally direct us to the emptiness. When we get sick, for example, the first place we go is not to the hospital, but to bed. When we sleep, we feel relaxed and peaceful. We bring our mind and body into the emptiness. Everybody does this automatic meditation without noticing it during sleep and periods of deep relaxation. Most of our daily energy blockages are opened and resolved in this way The deeper you go into the emptiness, the faster your body will heal. By practicing Qigong we go into the emptiness where we effortlessly balance the Yin and Yang, the female and male energy. As the balance of energy comes back, the body heals.

 

-Chunyi Lin creator of Spring Forest Qigong

 

 

 

 

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you are also not in meditation.

 

You must become like a baby in the womb, there and yet not there.

 

 

Meditation is like the borderline between sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

 

“Very difficult.”

 

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long periods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to

remember how.”

 

 

 

-The Magus Of Java

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

 

The Magus of Java (p. 52)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline between sleep and waking, okay?"

 

-The Magus of Java (p. 56)

[teknix]

The argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) can take several forms. As a statistical syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:^[1]

• Most of what authority A has to say on subject matter S is correct.
• A says P about subject matter S.
• Therefore, P is correct.

Appeal to Authority much?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[Thunder_Gooch]

If I want to learn to build a house, I would apprentice under a master architect and carpenter. who's work I liked.

 

If I wanted to become a mechanic, I'd apprentice under a competent mechanic.

 

You are reading too much into it.

 

The argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) can take several forms. As a statistical syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:^[1]

• Most of what authority A has to say on subject matter S is correct.
• A says P about subject matter S.
• Therefore, P is correct.

Appeal to Authority much?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

 

 

[teknix]

Perhaps, or mayhap you are under-thinking it?