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#1 Shagrath

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc? Is it just strong dan tiens or they have activated some parts of mind that other practitioners didn't or couldn't? I know a lot of people that are training some forms of qigong every day for 1-3h for 30 years and nothing, and Master Wang just did Zhan Zhuang and he went really in depth of controlling energy. Every individual with those kind of supreme energy control did different style/approach to training and because of that I cannot see any overlap in what they did except meditation and devotion to energy arts :)

Is there something special that person has to develop as ability or make strong some energy structure to start developing those kind of abilities or you just practice daily energy work and meditation and it will come if you have those kind of potentials inside you?

Thanks
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#2 Ninjafro

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

I'm by no means an expert, but I'm sure the disparity can be described largely in part by merely the lineage/traditions from which these individuals learned.

The way I see it, it's similar to an educational setting: if you spend an hour a day going to an introductory physics class each day, you're not going to know as many things after 10 years as you would studying accelerated, calculus-based physics for an hour a day for the same number of years.
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#3 Shagrath

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:06 PM

Yes that is true, and I cannot agree more on that. But I know a few people that are practicing Zhan Zhuang for 2h per day for few years and they have only health benefits and on the other hand you have Master Wang who also practised Zhan Zhuang and he was well Master Wang :D

There most be something more to any cultivation beside exercise.
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#4 Shagrath

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:18 PM

And on the other end of the spectrum you have Padre Pio (Francesco Forgione) who didn't do any particular energy cultivation, nei gong, or dan tien exercises he was just a monk and he prayed entire day and he was stigmata and very famous healer. He could cure cancer in few seconds.
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#5 Ish

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:38 PM

Teacher, method, student.

If someone practiced Zhan Zhuang correctly for 2 hours straight every day for 3-5 years, In my opinion they would be a transformed person, very powerful.
The problem is many people these days are learning from a book, so for many people this is not adequate to practice correctly. In this case the more devoted the student the bigger mess they MIGHT get themselves in, due to extensive practice in a harmful manner.

So when you get an excellent teacher with an excellent practice and an excellent student, that is a recipe for success.

#6 Protector

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:42 PM

There is a connection
The one reason why they're powerful
This connection is not clearly seen when people think of energy practices as something like sports
When training in a gym, a person has to do the same exercise a whole bunch of times that will give them more strength
With energy things it's the opposite, while physical strength is gained by doing something, the other kind of strength is gained by not doing anything
What these people do is gather energy and don't use it. It's like splashing some water out of a bucket, once the water is gone you need to get more.

Even though it looks like additional muscle from physical exercise is proof of having more power, it's actually something completely different.
The muscle is not the source of power but the pathways. When you want to lift something in a gym, you send your intention into doing it then the energy looks for a way to do it and then you finally lift it. Yi Chi and Jing
After doing something many times it becomes easier because there are more pathways for energy to travel. Like an old river, water washes away at the shores and it becomes wider and smoother over time.

The way to gather energy is to trap it. Horse stance is one way to do it but it must be very painful, instead of getting easier it gets harder. Monks all over the world have practices where they take vows to not do certain things and if they do things right, they gather power. Mo Pai seems to be a martial art all about gathering energy, practitioner just gathers so much power that normal people don't have anything they can do against them.

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#7 GrandmasterP

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

Padre Pio I have no idea. For sure the guy was an amazing healer but as far as our paths are concerned the guy never cultivated a day in his life.
Grandmaster John Chang was a bang up healer with a busy practice long before he was 'discovered' by those documentary guys and then it all seemed to go at bit pear shaped. seems like he's back to doing it his way now but beyond that there seems to be little information that is reliable and what I have seen in English is written by guys with a book to sell or an axe to grind but maybe there are genuine Mo Pai teachers in the west. Someone on here is sure to know. Shocking Hand technique is an old standard though, you can see similar in many traditions from the pentecostalist chaps slaying the faithful in the spirit by a dinger touch or even a breath through our guys who can have folk tilting heavy tables with a little finger to the electric hands of acupuncturists . That's not difficult to learn and do and it's not magic just a combination of Newtonian Mechanics and suggestion.
Those guys who can push a huge opponent through the air with effortless ease are using technique and that can be learnt but like any technique some become really good at it , others not so good. Peter Ralston's very best students are no match for Peter himself no disrespect to any of them. Chris Lomas iron shirt lads are the same, Chris is just that bit better at it than everyone else always.
Mainly the big ticket routines like pushing, shock hands or similar aren't necessarily what the cultivation is about they are more like showcases of the more dramatic effects of what some cultivations can DO. Beyond a few people saying "Gosh!" and then wanting to have a go themself the world continues to turn much as it ever did. Sincere cultivation with long term benefit isn't nearly as showy, it's simply what cultivators do day after day with a view to maybe one day getting better at it. No audience required.
HTH

Edited by GrandmasterP, 06 November 2012 - 03:36 PM.

Chinese Health QiGong Association here...
http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/
More about Mindfulness here...
http://bemindful.co.uk/

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#8 Shagrath

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:53 PM

So you both are saying that if you have a genuine teacher and you practice a lot you'll achieve energy powers. It makes sense but what about everybody who trained Xingyiquan and only one person was Wang. Why didn't all students of his teacher had the same level of energy control. Or Morihei Ueshiba, who created aikido. He was the only one with absolute control with energy processes and from all of his students the was only Gozo Shioda who came very close to Morihei. And other hundreds of people who trained even more then Gozo with genuine teacher could not do what he did.

I don't think there is a system guarantees energy powers.
"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force."

#9 Shagrath

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

Teacher, method, student.

If someone practiced Zhan Zhuang correctly for 2 hours straight every day for 3-5 years, In my opinion they would be a transformed person, very powerful.
The problem is many people these days are learning from a book, so for many people this is not adequate to practice correctly. In this case the more devoted the student the bigger mess they MIGHT get themselves in, due to extensive practice in a harmful manner.

So when you get an excellent teacher with an excellent practice and an excellent student, that is a recipe for success.


Now I can relate to what you are saying. I was one of those people :) Yesterday I went to my first individual training of Da Cheng Quan and it was mind blowing. Different then anything I read before.
"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force."

#10 de_paradise

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:52 AM

Power is finding and synchronizing with qi and higher level of consciousness, not much to do with physical movements which are only the base.

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#11 DAO rain TAO

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:35 AM

From my experience, the "trick" here is to learn Zen Mind.
If you do Zhang Zhuang with a Zen Mind, it works deep.

Otherwise, you will reach a "limit level" of standing (maybe more than 2 hours), but nothing more.

#12 Mokona

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:50 AM

Whenever you passionately practice something for a long time you get results. How hard is that? You can develop chi from just sitting and practicing chi breathing and relaxation response.

I'm no John Chang but it worked for me. Boom.
Reality is awesome.

#13 GrandmasterP

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:32 AM

Good post. Any cultivation stuck at pays dividends. It's skipping merrily from one thing to another that holds back development and success.
Chinese Health QiGong Association here...
http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/
More about Mindfulness here...
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
( Dogen).

#14 snowmonki

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:04 AM

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc?


Yes. Though I'm being slightly presumptuous. I don't know Robert Peng, and I know enough about Sifu Chang to know I don't know what he does so this is not about him.

However in the lines of Xing-yi (and some bagua) there are accounts of this kind of ability, and I am aware of aspects of that.

First let me say, 'qi' can be felt either via nerves or from fluids, this I have been taught from several sources and so it seems beyond simply 'one style's' way of thinking. When felt through nerves it tends to be electric, zappy, tingly, or like lightning. Fluids is different. From this it is often clear which systems appear to advocate training that has an emphasis for one or the other or a balanced approach. It is NOT that you have 'electric' qi or whatever, the sensations are just that, and are a feedback for how you feel the qi. With practice you can learn to use qi in ways that produce those sensations more than others. Make sense?

You want to balance and practice xiantian (pre-heaven) and houtian (postheaven) methods. The xiantian gong tends to be the deeper more internal stillness practices that take you into yourself and back towards emptiness. The houtian gong tends to be about balancing and developing what and who you are here and now, physically, energetically etc. They are intimately related. Like the phrase 'to go out, go in, to go in, go out'. You can only go so far one way, without a balanced opposite. Xiantian gong tends to emphasise building and developing dantian and zhongmai.

Martial artists tend to emphasise houtian, because they need to fight. But the development of intent that aids the xiantian gong is defintely improved through the practice of martial arts.

Yi Quan if taught well is great houtian, however it is extremely rare for anyone to be doing xiantian within it.

Best,

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Edited by snowmonki, 07 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.

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#15 Humble

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

The argument could be made that surviving Kundalini/Greater Kan and Li (think I said that right) also connects a person with high levels of power and/or siddhi. Which makes sense for hose who pursue that kind of enlightenment, but what of the "spontaneous awakenings"? There's no tradition or lineage involved in those.
I'm inclined to believe that development takes a massive amount of dedication for just about everyone but now and then an extremely rare person comes along who taps into The Dao/Divine/Kundalini etc in different ways. These are the people who start lineages or techniques. In a way it may be good that many people are learning from books or videos and exploring for themselves, this may lead to new usefull techniques being created. Or more spontaneous combustion. You know, whichever.

#16 Isimsiz Biri

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:17 AM

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc? Is it just strong dan tiens or they have activated some parts of mind that other practitioners didn't or couldn't? I know a lot of people that are training some forms of qigong every day for 1-3h for 30 years and nothing, and Master Wang just did Zhan Zhuang and he went really in depth of controlling energy. Every individual with those kind of supreme energy control did different style/approach to training and because of that I cannot see any overlap in what they did except meditation and devotion to energy arts :)

Is there something special that person has to develop as ability or make strong some energy structure to start developing those kind of abilities or you just practice daily energy work and meditation and it will come if you have those kind of potentials inside you?

Thanks


In my humble opinion, it is a matter of lineage. If there is a master of a certain true lineage and if that lineage really possess the correct set of techniques, then with the guidance of that master, the results that you are looking for could be achieved.

Also, Chang Sifu, Wang Xiangzhai and Robert Peng are not in the same league. I am not sure of Chang Sifu's level, once upon a time I heard that he is level 20 of 72. Again, I am not sure of this information. But anyway, Chang sifu is far more superior than the other two.

I would also like to add that I think Wang Xiangzhai's methods of Zhang Zhuang and martial art of Yiquan or Da Cheng Chuan is very valuable, because it is much more easy to access them compared to Mo-Pai and especially Zhang Zhuang could be done by everybody and it is very good for health. Thus, for public interest, Wang Xiangzhai has much more importance than Mo-Pai.

Edited by Recep Ivedik, 07 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.

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