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#1 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:04 AM

Let's discuss anything regarding to the terms or phrases in classic Chinese, here, in this thread. All questions are welcome.
靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#2 yiming

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 08:37 AM

老師,我在這裡。我的名字易明。我想學習中國古典語言。

#3 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 01 September 2012 - 03:54 PM

老師,我在這裡。我的名字易明。我想學習中國古典語言。

In case of any misunderstanding or disrespect. Here is the translation.

"Teacher, I'm here. My name is 易明(yiming). I am here to learn classical Chinese."
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#4 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 01 September 2012 - 05:19 PM

Chapter 14
1. 視之不見,名曰夷。
2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。
3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

Translated in terse English...
1. View it couldn't see, let's call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, let's call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, let's call it Formless.

Chapter 14 is a very typical case of classic Chinese. The last three characters, 夷 希 微, in the first three lines are very classical. Their classic meaning may not be found in any of the modern Chinese dictionaries. It is because they were already being defined in these lines.

From Chapter 1, we were told that Tao is invisible. When Tao was invisible, we grok its quale. We are the qualia of Tao...??? Well, Tao is formless, colorless, and soundless.

Lines 1 through 3 are self explanatory.
1. View it couldn't see, let's call it 夷(yi2).
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, let's call it 希(xi1).
3. Touch it couldn't feel, let's call it 微(wei2).

Let's start with line 3, it says something that one cannot feel which implies it's 'formless'. Thus 微(wei2) is formless.
Line 2, it says something that one cannot be heard which implies it's 'soundless'. Thus 希(xi1) is soundless.
Line 1, it says something that one cannot feel by touch which implies it's 'colorless'. Thus 夷(yi2) is colorless.

Of course, we could say line 1 as follows:
Line 1, it says something that one cannot see which implies it's 'invisible' too. Thus 夷(yi2) is invisible. However, Chapter 1 had already stolen the word 'invisible' by calling Tao as 無(Wu, invisible)。 So, we ended up 夷(yi2) as 'colorless'.

This is the fun part in reading and studying the TTC. It gives us an opportunity to test our wisdom by making us to think a little by our own intuition with common sense. Finally, the ultimate test was the sense of logic.
靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#5 yiming

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 05:38 PM

This is the fun part in reading and studying the TTC. It gives us an opportunity to test our wisdom by making us to think a little by our own intuition with common sense. Finally, the ultimate test was the sense of logic.


I thought that the basic purpose for studying the Chinese Classics including the Tao Te Ching is to learn how to live the
right way. (學做人)

#6 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:17 PM

I thought that the basic purpose for studying the Chinese Classics including the Tao Te Ching is to learn how to live the
right way. (學做人)


Yes, yiming, but you must learn to understand the principles of the Tao Te Ching, in order, to know how to live the right way...!!!
If you don't understand these principles, then how are you going to live the right way...??? :)
靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#7 dawei

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:47 PM

You learn to live the right way from nature... book reading puts in you suspended animation of virtual living. Put the book down and your back to real-life and nature. Lao Zi said "the ancients"... what books did they learn from? In a word, NONE.

BTW: The oldest texts have the first three lines differently:

MWD A:
視之而弗見名之曰
聽之而弗聞名之曰希
之而弗得名之曰

MWD B:

視之而弗見□之曰
聽之而弗聞命之曰希
昏之而弗得命之曰

Fu Xi, Heshang Gong, Wang Bi:
視之不見名曰
聽之不聞名曰希。
之不得名曰

I would recommend that if you are going to quote a text then state the source. You are translating from Fuxi's changes which Heshang Gong and Wang Bi follow... and ChiDragon follows.

The ultimate test is life.

#8 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:07 PM

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the same thing. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

BTW: Your ref: 昏之而弗得命之曰
德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.
and
昏 should be 捪.

之而弗得, 命之曰
捪 means "touch".
昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint


In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。
In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

Anymore question.....????

Edited by ChiDragon, 02 September 2012 - 07:06 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#9 yiming

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:09 PM

You learn to live the right way from nature... book reading puts in you suspended animation of virtual living. Put the book down and your back to real-life and nature. Lao Zi said "the ancients"... what books did they learn from? In a word, NONE.


True. But this applies to those who have the ability to live faultlessly without following a book. The rest of us are compulsive bookworms and you are stuffed with knowledge on the Tao scripts like a walking Wikipedia.

#10 yiming

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:26 PM

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the something. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

BTW: Your ref: 昏之而弗得命之曰
德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.
and
昏 should be 捪.

之而弗得, 命之曰
捪 means "touch".
昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint


In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。
In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

Anymore question.....????

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the something. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

BTW: Your ref: 昏之而弗得命之曰
德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.
and
昏 should be 捪.

之而弗得, 命之曰
捪 means "touch".
昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint


In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。
In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

Anymore question.....????


弗 means 不 ?
Can you explain how that is so?

#11 yiming

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:33 PM

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?

#12 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

FYI...
Here is a good reference of the restored copy of the Tao Te Ching(MWD-A).
Please go to page 四四九(449)for Chapter 14.

之而弗得, 命之曰

Ref: Tao Te Ching MWD-A

Edited by ChiDragon, 01 September 2012 - 09:42 PM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#13 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:40 PM

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?


Yes.
弗 is a very classical character of saying "no; not"; and
不 is the modern character was most used for "no; not".
靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#14 yiming

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:51 PM

Yes.
弗 is a very classical character of saying "no; not"; and
不 is the modern character was most used for "no; not".


Chapter 14 has a beautiful form and rhythym to it.
What do you think it is saying?

#15 ChiDragon

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    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:17 AM

Chapter 14 Revised
14
1. 視之不見,名曰夷。
2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。
3. 摶之不得,名曰微。
4. 此三者不可致詰,
5. 故混而為一。
6. 其上不皦,
7. 其下不昧,
8. 繩繩不可名,
9. 復歸於無物。
10.是謂無狀之狀,
11.無物之象,
12.是謂惚恍。
13.迎之不見其首,
14.隨之不見其後。
15.執古之道以御今之有。
16.能知古始,
17.是謂道紀。

Translated in terse English...
1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.
4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.
5. Thus they are blended into one.
6. Its top not brilliant.
7. Its bottom nor dim.
8. Its continuance unnameable.
9. Returned to being nothingness,
10. Is called form of no form.
11. An image of nothingness,
12. Is called obscure.
13. Greet it cannot see its head.
14. Follow it cannot see its back.
15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings
16. Able to understand the ancient origin,
17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Edited by ChiDragon, 02 September 2012 - 07:46 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#16 dawei

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:18 AM

Anymore question.....????

Actually, I only asked one question and you didn't answer that one.

But thanks for that link as another reference is always good to have.




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