22 replies to this topic

[Ish]

I'm integrating San Ti stance into a Zhan Zhuang routine.
At the moment following this posture



Any tips, reliable resources, experiences on this training?

[zerostao]

what is your weight distribution in regards to the front leg to back leg?
i enjoy this posture big time, and practice both sides obviously.

[ChiDragon]

This is more like an on guard position to be ready for combat.
Most of the weight should be distributed on the rear leg.

[zerostao]

yes more weight on the back leg. i go for 60/40 but i know others go 70/30 or 80/20 etc.
i was asking ish about his weight distribution.

[Ish]

About 70-30 ~ 60-40 . How long do you practice it?
Personally im not going to time anything but around 15 mins per side will probably be a start for me.
I've noticed It feels quite refreshing to practice a lopsided form alongside the holding ball posture.
The stance itself feels quite powerful, will have to see what it brings with some regular practice.

[idquest]

Frantzis has two or three DVD's on San Ti. Unfortunately, it is a portion of a package of 11 DVD's. You can check his website, some info there posted free.

[spiraltao]

Lam Kam Chuen calls it the "on guard" posture. He uses in his book as an intro to bearing all the weight on one leg (the rear one in this case.)

To quote the author "You need to be accomplished in this practice so that you can hold any position with the weight on one side for as long as you normally stand with your weight evenly spread." "Lower your right hand until it is level with your navel. Your palm is facing downwards. Turn your left hand so that it extends towards the left diagonal in line with your left toes. The palm also faces downwards. Relax neck and shoulders. Imagine there are balloons supporting you under your armpits and elbows, and a large one on which you rest your bottom"

Another good quote: "Train with your body oriendted to the right diagonal as well as to the left. As you become familiar with standing in this posture, extend your front foot forwards and sink lower on the back leg to deepen your stance "


I hope this helps.

Edited by jaysahnztao, 17 August 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[adept]

All you need to know is here: http://www.ycgf.org/...Y_SanTiShi.html

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

I use 100/0 weight distribution.

Its a very complex stance that takes several years to learn correctly. Especially considering the vision aspect, where you look with the back' of your eyes, so everything is in perfect focus. And the breathing techniques, drawing energy from you hand to nose, then down to LDT.

[baiqi]

Santi is the basic foundation of Xingyi quan. It is great, but is different from "holding the ball" posture (that you see in Yiquan).
It is very martially oriented, right from the start (whereas universal post can be used for meditation only). It is good to learn how to project energy for example. The weight distribution helps you to be powerful and balanced in the same time.

However, I do not agree that it is an "on guard" position, although it looks like it. I used to believe this for a long time, but changed my mind thanks to sparring practice.
There is actually no "on guard" in a self defence context. Even for sparring, this is not the best. I am particulary thinking about hook punches that you cannot easily counter if you are in santi.
I believe an "open guard" is better (like the Yiquan positions, silat guard postures, or even boxing guard with open hands)

[Sloppy Zhang]

I would suggest Frantzis' DVD's on the topic.

A bit pricey, yes. But worth every dollar. He goes into GREAT detail.

It is a very complex posture. However (according to Frantzis) it is one of the BEST postures to build a vast reserve of chi, whether you want that for health or for martial arts.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

I would suggest Frantzis' DVD's on the topic.

A bit pricey, yes. But worth every dollar. He goes into GREAT detail.

It is a very complex posture. However (according to Frantzis) it is one of the BEST postures to build a vast reserve of chi, whether you want that for health or for martial arts.

Agreed !

Its the best resource on the San Ti stance. He doesn't leave anything out.

[Ish]

I would suggest Frantzis' DVD's on the topic.

A bit pricey, yes. But worth every dollar. He goes into GREAT detail.

It is a very complex posture. However (according to Frantzis) it is one of the BEST postures to build a vast reserve of chi, whether you want that for health or for martial arts.

Thanks i'll check out the Dvd, by the way does Bruce Frantzis advocate the 100-0 weighting?

[Franklin]

There are lots of great resources for San Ti-
and there are also different ways to train the stance depending on what line of Xing Yi someone is practicing

a lot of the subtleties of the stance will only come with time
and corrections (either from a teacher or self correction)

I have some instructional material up on the web
(you can try the first month of training for $1)
http://onlineschool....=416&Itemid=346
so this is another resource that people could use if they wanted to
and its not that expensive either.

San Ti is really about building the body and the connections for further Xing Yi practice
of course it also builds the energy
but it takes a while to be able to do the stance coirrectly to be able to get to that level

traditionally xing yi practice was
6 months of santi
and then the 5 elements
1 year of pi quan (metal)
6 months of zuan quan (water)
6 months of beng quan (wood)
6 months of pao quan (fire)
6 months of heng quan (earth)

and each of the five element forms can be used to strengthen the internal organs related to the element
and each conditions the body in a slightly different way
and brings the power out..


Franklin


ps- San Ti doesn't translated as 3 treasures stance (that would be san bao shi)
it translates as 3 body posture
but is does refer to the 3 treasures , the three divisions of the body, etc, etc....

Edited by Franklin, 18 August 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Ya Mu]

Tips? Purchase wood and chicken wire. Build a chicken pen. Get chickens. When they start laying, start your San Ti practice. Practice for one year. After the year move onwards to metal,water,wood, fire, earth spending a minimum of several months each.
Chen Pan Ling's senior student Y.W. Chang taught 70/30 weight distribution. 30 degrees with back foot. Different systems of Hsing I teach it differently.

And why the chickens, you ask? You are not doing San Ti correctly unless you can hold eggs under arms without breaking them (and without dropping them). Trust me, you gonna need that chicken pen unless you have done this sort of thing before.

San Ti is martial. From San Ti position one can move very quickly a great distance with offensive defense. It can be devastating. All phase choices -listed above- (and linking) come from San Ti and then there are advanced animal forms. Moment arms, strike force vectors, and blocking angles are optimized. In line ghost boxing.

As martial San Ti is great.

As strictly meditative energetics? meh.. I don't think that much of it in terms of energetic efficiency. Personally I would much rather be doing neigong movements. But I do occasionally practice the Hsing I for exercise. Good stuff!

Edited by Ya Mu, 18 August 2012 - 04:29 PM.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thanks i'll check out the Dvd, by the way does Bruce Frantzis advocate the 100-0 weighting?

Short answer: yes.

Alternate answer: it depends.

Complete answer: The great thing about Frantzis is that since he's trained with many different masters in several different lineages in several different styles, he has the perspective to see not just WHAT the different variations are, but WHY they came to be that way, HOW they develop the energy or the body differently, what is best for each situation.

So when he gives you a breakdown of the differences between a Yang or Wu version of a movement, or a Shanxi or Hebei style of xingyi, you come away with it not knowing which one is "better", but knowing that each movement does exactly what it was designed to do, and therefore what method you should do depending on what your overall goal is.

I do believe that he says that the 100-0 stance is best for overall chi building- whether you want to do it for physical health or for martial power.

If I recall correctly, he seems to allude to the fact that other stances, from 60-40 to 70-30 to 80-20, affect the body differently than the 100-0 stance, I think helping it build more muscle (but don't quote me on that, I don't recall if that was from Frantzis or another source).

Ya Mu also brings up another point that Frantzis also mentions multiple times in multiple situations- xingyi is MARTIAL. It is great as a physical system. It can generate a lot of chi energy. But it sort of caps out in terms of spiritual development.

Now for Frantzis, he's pretty upfront that, in his opinion, Bagua is the full package- be it physical health, combat prowess, or spiritual development. Depending on your lineage of Tai Chi, it might also provide a full on physical, energetic, and spiritual path to development (the lineage he inherited from Liu Hung Chieh is one such lineage).


That said, San Ti is still great, and Frantzis makes a point that though his main teacher, Liu Hung Chieh, alternated the practices of Tai Chi or Bagua depending on the situation, Liu Hung Chieh practiced the five elements of xingyi every day because they were excellent methods of energizing the physical body.

Edited by Sloppy Zhang, 18 August 2012 - 06:32 PM.