38 replies to this topic

[ChiDragon]

The purpose of the Circulatory System(CS) is to circulate blood, in the blood vessels, both the arteries and veins. The heart is the most important organ in the Circulatory System; it pumps blood to bring nourishment and oxygen to the body cells. The blood also remove waste products from the cells such as CO2 and the parts of the dead cells. The cells need oxygen to produce body energy and perform other functions. Literally, the cells are breathing oxygen. Hence, it was called the Internal Breathing or Cellular Respiration.

The heart is the most important organ in the Circulatory System. It pumps blood into the lungs to collect oxygen. The amount depends how much oxygen was available in the lung. The availability of oxygen can be control by the Respiratory System externally. If there are more oxygen in the lung, then the blood can collect more. How can we control the amount of oxygen in the lungs directly....??? That is where Chi Kung comes into the picture....!!!

How I had taught from whoever, a teacher or book, that breathing should be done as slow as possible in Chi Kung. The abdomen should expand while inhale; and compress while exhale. The ideal breathing rate is four times per minute. The reason for slow breathing was to give ample of time for the red blood cells to collect more oxygen molecules from the lungs for circulation.

The heart is the second organ to use the oxygen for cardiac muscle contraction. BTW The lung was the first organ to use the oxygen because it was the first organ come in contact with oxygen. If there was no oxygen provided for the production of ATP in the cardiac muscles, then the cardiac muscles will not and cannot contract to pump blood. As a result, the body cells are suffocated and the body ceases to function completely.

Needless to say, according to the Cellular Respiration Theory, each molecule of glucose will produce a maximum number of 36 molecules of ATP for the body to function at its peak. Can you imaging if all the cells produce the maximum number of ATP, do you see how strong your Jin(勁) is or can be...??? Doesn't that encourage us to practice abdominal breathing as a basic requirement for Chi Kung. Is it too shameful to say that Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing....???

Edited by ChiDragon, 23 June 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[Jetsun]

Nan Huai Chin (who has been recognised as being as master in a number of different Taoist and Buddhist lineages) suggests that the most important aspect of breathing is recognising the significance of what happens in the gap in-between the breath.

[ChiDragon]

I hope no one has to pay for this trivia......

[mYTHmAKER]

Nan Huai Chin (who has been recognised as being as master in a number of different Taoist and Buddhist lineages) suggests that the most important aspect of breathing is recognising the significance of what happens in the gap in-between the breath.

right on
it's the space between the breaths that leads to meditation and quiets ones mind

[Jetsun]

I hope no one has to pay for this trivia......

In all the lessons you have been trying to give us poor ignorant bums I haven't heard you mention the gaps in-between the breaths at all, the goal not being abdominal breathing as such (although that happens as a byproduct of calming the mind) but to cultivate the natural cellular expansion and contraction which occurs at the lower dan tien when the mind and breath becomes quiet.

"As I have said in the last session, a fetus does not breathe through its nose. It therefore does not have the in-and-out breath. Yet, the fetus has a “momentum” that continues to power life through a movement of expansion and contraction. This is the phenomenon of birth-and-death (生滅現象). If we have to use analogy it’s like the current of electricity … remember it’s just an analogy! The phenomenon of birth-and-death is not on-and-off, but continues seamlessly.

At birth, as the baby’s umbilical cord is cut and its mouth cleaned, it will first exhale with a crying outburst and then it inhales. From that moment on, the in-and-out breathing continues until the final moment of death and then the person breathes out their last breath. What the Buddhist sutras didn’t elaborate clearly, as was lacking in Tibetan Buddhism and Taoism literature, is this: the fetus does not breathe through the nose or pores; its life is sustained by a continuous movement of expansion and contraction, or how energy functions. The goal is to cultivate that “movement,” not to cultivate the in-and-out of the respiratory breathing. This has to be clear from the outset."

- The Anapana Chi Conversations of Master Nan Huai-Chin and Peter Senge

Edited by Jetsun, 25 June 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[ChiDragon]

What is Chi...???

Scientifically:
Based on the Cellular Respiration theory, a simple formula was derived as:

Glucose + Oxygen => H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

Now, the problem we are having is what is Chi in the formula. Is Chi Oxygen or ATP....???
If we define Chi as a gas, then, Chi is oxygen.
If we define Chi as energy, then, Chi is ATP.


Based on mythical beliefs:
Most people have this in mind that...

Breathing => Air + Chi

Chi is energy from thin air.

This is where I stand right now....!!!

[spiraltao]

Ref-1: Lactic acid



Ref-2: Latcate threshold


For a Chi Kung practitioner, the pyruvate will not be converted to lactic acid because there was no hypoxia condition to reach a lactate threshold level.

While this is not related to taoism or chi gung, I seen this principle at work on an episode of fight science. The test subject was Randy Couture. The scientists monitored Randy's lactic acid build up while he was making his muscles tense and work. The researchers were stunned when they seen that the longer Randy worked his muscles, the longer the time, the LOWER the lactic acid concentration was! The scientists were stunned to see this.

I know this post is a bit late, but I felt it worth mentioning.

[spiraltao]

double post sorry

Edited by jaysahnztao, 27 June 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[ChiDragon]

While this is not related to taoism or chi gung, I seen this principle at work on an episode of fight science. The test subject was Randy Couture. The scientists monitored Randy's lactic acid build up while he was making his muscles tense and work. The researchers were stunned when they seen that the longer Randy worked his muscles, the longer the time, the LOWER the lactic acid concentration was! The scientists were stunned to see this.

I know this post is a bit late, but I felt it worth mentioning.

No, it was not too late as long you are presenting something scientific.
What else did he do besides working on his muscles....???

It would help me to give an analysis, if you can tell me how did he work his muscles also.

Edited by ChiDragon, 27 June 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[A Seeker]

A pulse oximeter is used to measure the percentage of red blood cells carying oxygen in the arteries. A single cell carries a fixed amount of oxygen so 100% of the cells carrying oxygen would be perfect. Currently, a blood-oxygen level of 95% or greater is considered healthy while levels of 80 to 94% are considered low. Below 80% is called hypoxemia and is life-threatening.

You can buy them at most drug stores or online at lots of sites like this: http://www.oximetersonline.com/


Just food for thought...

[ChiDragon]

Fight science (MMA) full episode



Okay...I think I know the answer why his lactate level went down.

Please watch at 37:00, the answer is right there. This is to test the knowledge for all the Martial Artists Tai Ji and Chi Kung practitioners.



PS...
The clue is in the Cellular Respiration(CR). Any one can figure this out. I'll let you guys have some fun. You can guess the answer or study the CR process and get the answer. This is very educational to the Martial Art practitioners. So, you won't be insulted even if you have given the wrong answer. Please give it a try. Thanks.

Edited by ChiDragon, 27 June 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[宁]

QD,

I must say i admire your persistance in interpreting ancient practices by use of modern science.

My advice (if you feel i'm worthy of giving you one), is to think of your knowledge as flowers that you are trying to plant:
Just posting ideas without considering the people's feedback is just like throwing the flowers carelessly around, without preparing the ground, without watering them etc.

It's precisely because these ideas are so important to you, that you should try to make the minds of the people receptive to them. Otherwise it's just a waste of time from your part. 而且他们会看不起你.

I'd like to quote the words of a Chinese Taiji Master: "Make one thousand friends, but not one single enemy".

Good luck

E.

[ChiDragon]

宁

Sharing new or different knowledge is not making enemies. If people don't even try to understand something new, and stick with the stagnant ancient knowledge is not making progress. FYI your information, the modern science explain them all if you are willing to open your mind to it.

而且他们会看不起你.(but people will look down on you)

難道為了這些不重要的小事就可以埋沒現實了嗎...???
Do you think this unimportant little thing will make me to hide the truth....???

PS...
For those who are not interested, please don't bother....

Edited by ChiDragon, 27 June 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Birch]

Er, so how during qi-gong practice do I 'get' underandings of 'ancient' theories that when I look up later correspond - or as near as dammit? (the last part is just an expression to say pretty near enough to be the same thing). So perhaps the 'scientific' qi-gong theory does indeed line-up with what's going on but have you considered that it might only be partially descriptive of what's going on (because the physical domain knowledge and language hasn't caught up with everything that is going on quite yet) or that it might be slightly skewed to one aspect of the full phenomenon (here it would be physical) and so leaving other stuff out? I also wouldn't equate 'ancient' with surpassed in any way.

The above is not intended to dismiss attempts at correlating qi-gong effects and practices with current scientiic knowledge BTW. And so perhaps also could be attempted, not dismissing 'ancient' effects and practices because they don't fit the current scientific model yet.

[ChiDragon]

Pyruvate or Pyruvic acid is the end product of the anaerobic portion of glycolysis.

1. If the cell has enough oxygen to run aerobic respiration then pyruvate is converted into acetyl-CoA and carbon dioxide byt eh enzyme pyruvate carboxylase.

2. If there isn't enough oxygen in the cell, then pyruvate is converted to lactic acid in order to free up some of the required reactants(NAD+). This allows anaerobic glycolysis to continue.

Here is the next clue.....

[ChiDragon]

The measurements were just monitoring muscle strength and lactic acid but not the oxygen level in the muscle.

The initial reading of lactate level was 5.2
After one minutes was 4.1

The scientists were assuming that if the muscles work for a minute will cause the pyruvic acid to convert into lactic acid. However, it was not the case, the oxygen in the muscle have to be depleted before that can happen.

In the video from 37:00 and on, Randy Couture was never out of breath and no sight of hypoxia. There was not a chance for the pyruvic acid to be converted into lactic acid. Instead, the pyruvic acid was converted into ATP. Hence, that will cause the lactic acid level to drop from 5.2 to 4.1. Indeed, the measurements were done incorrectly and caused them to draw to a wrong conclusion.

Edited by ChiDragon, 27 June 2012 - 09:22 PM.