Cheshire Cat Posted June 18, 2012 Taoist legends are full of incredible stories and miraculous feats of the mighty Immortals. My question is: do this kind of magic of the immortals comes from cultivation practice alone (meditation, long meditation, t'ai chi, hermitage....) or they were also sorcerers able to perform magical rites as the Celestial Masters. Do they train in magical rites and sorcery... or they practice intensive meditation like John Chang to develop those skills? Or maybe both? Thank you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted June 18, 2012 There's a bunch of things going on, some even use medicine and stuff Most of these power things come as side effects from what they are doing in their training stuff, no one goes right for the powers unless there's a war or something and you have to do or die Some practices deal with death and so they get the do or die powers, like these monks in Japan who just run all the time 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted June 18, 2012 As Sinfest says, powers are a side effect of practices and the growth in silence/energy. Also, often they require specific training to implement (get a "feel" for). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hagar Posted June 19, 2012 Taoist legends are full of incredible stories and miraculous feats of the mighty Immortals. My question is: do this kind of magic of the immortals comes from cultivation practice alone (meditation, long meditation, t'ai chi, hermitage....) or they were also sorcerers able to perform magical rites as the Celestial Masters. Do they train in magical rites and sorcery... or they practice intensive meditation like John Chang to develop those skills? Or maybe both? Thank you! With respect, I must add that very little, if any of the so called "feats" of masters living or dead have any hold in reality. Most is folklore, or mixed with degrees of fairytales and legends. Most feats of living masters have no substantial effect outside the subjective realm. I've seen the use of magical talismans, incantations, vizualisations and healings. Even the healings are a matter of exchange but also dialogue, not of magic or powers. The stuff that John Chang does takes enormous amount of time, and what do you get in the end? h 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humble Posted August 16, 2012 The stuff that John Chang does takes enormous amount of time, and what do you get in the end? h The ability to help/others? Lead a richer life? Conquer the world? I suppose it's all in what you want to do with it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) The ability to help/others? Lead a richer life? Conquer the world? I suppose it's all in what you want to do with it. light a piece of paper without a match? maybe help others and lead a richer life.. but so do many paths. conquer the world, historically..no; sometimes they advise, but rarely rule or conquer anything. anything external Edited August 16, 2012 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humble Posted August 16, 2012 light a piece of paper without a match? maybe help others and lead a richer life.. but so do many paths. conquer the world, historically..no; sometimes they advise, but rarely rule or conquer anything. anything external The conquer the world thing was mostly a joke. Though one CAN argue that charisma can be developed and augmented and political success could be implemented. If I remember correctly Alexander the Great was advised by Socrates or Plato in some mystic tradition and he was pretty darn successful in conquering things. I'm not advocating dominating others mind you, just expressing a possible example. That said I think developing the ability to aid others, no matter what the path, is one of the noblest goals in life. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) I think of Neo (matrix) - once you begin to understand the true nature of reality things become a lot more flexible. The waking up from the dream...type of thing In my dreams I can fly I can't see why this should be any different haha I think It takes imagination + clarity/focus + 100% faith Edited August 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 16, 2012 Taoist legends are full of incredible stories and miraculous feats of the mighty Immortals. My question is: do this kind of magic of the immortals comes from cultivation practice alone (meditation, long meditation, t'ai chi, hermitage....) or they were also sorcerers able to perform magical rites as the Celestial Masters. Do they train in magical rites and sorcery... or they practice intensive meditation like John Chang to develop those skills? Or maybe both? Thank you! It is my opinion there is no such thing as magic or the supernatural. neigong training is mechanical energy extraction and storage for the development of of your spirit in a biological manner. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marks of Glory Posted August 16, 2012 Hmm well.... Here in Brasil a few years ago a man entered a bank, in front of everyone, kneeled down in front of a cash machine and robbed a couple of thousand bucks.... no one noticed... but the cameras did.... That means that his "invisibility" was a energetic invisibility and not actual invisibility... perhaps he practiced sqigong or was just one more of the "naturals" that are out there. as for the "powers" that I felt, they didn't last long and I don't have much control over them. Sometimes I know deep issued from people I have close contact, like job, etc... SOme times I can quite easily hold my energy beneat the ground While I walk in downtown and it's funny, i feel reaally tiny, as if I hit the waist level of an average person (I'm 1,80), it's funny, and I don't know how this effects what the others percieve of me. Sometimes I feel my body levitate when I am about to sleep. There are some other experiences also that I don't think is important to express as these ones speak alot already... I am not saying that those are psychic powers, but they really match the "siddhis" mentioned in yoga. I imagine aa lonely hermit in the jungle, his experience in wilderness is so intense that he kiind of looses his "rational" thinking that it is just a perceptive / energetic phenomena. And well.. I bet most of us read alot of new age, scientific, daoist, etc... stuff. which gives our rational mind some tools to enable us to discuss abbout it without actually archaicly thinking "I really got very small". Oh, probably some thousand years ago there weren't cameras also.... so when someone made there energy "invisible" there was no maaterial to evidence that they did not get invisible.... those are just a few hypothesis my brothers... cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marks of Glory Posted August 16, 2012 It is my opinion there is no such thing as magic or the supernatural. neigong training is mechanical energy extraction and storage for the development of of your spirit in a biological manner. mechanical?!? energy?!?!? extraction?!?!?!??! storage?!?!?!?! development of spirit! in biological manner?!?!?!?!?! hmmm... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 17, 2012 mechanical?!? energy?!?!? extraction?!?!?!??! storage?!?!?!?! development of spirit! in biological manner?!?!?!?!?! hmmm... I view the spirit as an energetic biological entity, no more supernatural than your flesh and blood body. Our purpose here is to extract energy from the environment to feed and nourish it, and help it grow. In many schools they refer to it as the immortal fetus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marks of Glory Posted August 17, 2012 I view the spirit as an energetic biological entity, no more supernatural than your flesh and blood body. Our purpose here is to extract energy from the environment to feed and nourish it, and help it grow. In many schools they refer to it as the immortal fetus. please.. tell me more about it... I see supernatural powers as supernaturals from the point of view of who doesn't have them... e.g. the capacity to walk is supernatural for a tree.... the capacity of reasoning is supernatural for a dog, but nor for human... etc... try explain your concepts deeper still please... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) please.. tell me more about it... I see supernatural powers as supernaturals from the point of view of who doesn't have them... e.g. the capacity to walk is supernatural for a tree.... the capacity of reasoning is supernatural for a dog, but nor for human... etc... try explain your concepts deeper still please... “Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it... We will one day understand what causes it, and then cease to call it divine. And so it is with everything in the universe.” ― Hippocrates There is nothing in this universe that is supernatural, there is only that which we don't understand. I could rant on for hours about the biology of the the mind and the spirit, but not many people here really care and I would just be wasting my breath. If you are interested please feel free to pm me any further questions though. Edited August 17, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted August 17, 2012 "There is nothing in this universe that is supernatural, there is only that which we don't understand. I could rant on for hours about the biology of the the mind and the spirit, but not many people here really care and I would just be wasting my breath." I agree with the first part. I'd quite like to hear you rant on the second part and I disagree on the third part. 'biology of the spirit' - this is the kind of stuff I dig. Of course you'd probably have to call it something else ;-) 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marks of Glory Posted August 18, 2012 There is nothing in this universe that is supernatural, there is only that which we don't understand. I could rant on for hours about the biology of the the mind and the spirit, but not many people here really care and I would just be wasting my breath. If you are interested please feel free to pm me any further questions though. - I normally associate the term"biology" with physical structures.... oh, except with the shark's sensitivity to electricity, hehe - I do not think you wil waste your breath... I think alot of people in this forum are alittle interested in the matter.... heheh cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 19, 2012 Because its outside of my realm of experience I put most supernatural stuff in the 'don't know' bin, unless someone's trying to sell me something, then it's usually filed in another round bin. So, senior Pie Guy, how should we classify such things as ghosts, or the sprites, gnomes and other elementals that pop up in some magic systems. Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 19, 2012 Because its outside of my realm of experience I put most supernatural stuff in the 'don't know' bin, unless someone's trying to sell me something, then it's usually filed in another round bin. So, senior Pie Guy, how should we classify such things as ghosts, or the sprites, gnomes and other elementals that pop up in some magic systems. Thanks I'll work on writing an short article on the topic, it will take me a few days to collect my thoughts an organize it. I'll post a link to it here as soon as I can get the time to finish it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanO Posted August 20, 2012 There is nothing in this universe that is supernatural, there is only that which we don't understand. I could rant on for hours about the biology of the the mind and the spirit, but not many people here really care and I would just be wasting my breath. If you are interested please feel free to pm me any further questions though. Might as well have your discussion here, I for one am interested in this topic and your thoughts as well. I am wondering what you think the ultimate purpose of spiritual cultivation is, specifically with regard to the fact that if spirit is biological, what happens to it after death? Do you think this spirit survives the death of the physical body? If so, do you think non-cultivators survive death? If not, why cultivate? Just some thoughts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Might as well have your discussion here, I for one am interested in this topic and your thoughts as well. I am wondering what you think the ultimate purpose of spiritual cultivation is, specifically with regard to the fact that if spirit is biological, what happens to it after death? Do you think this spirit survives the death of the physical body? If so, do you think non-cultivators survive death? If not, why cultivate? Just some thoughts. You are alive because you have two spirits or minds, a yang mind/spirit and a yin mind/spirit. The yang mind/spirit is what is reading these words and making sense of them, right now you are in your yang mind/spirit/consciousness. Your yang mind/spirit is made of yang energy. Yang energy is like sunlight, it is active and moves of it's own accord. The yang mind/spirit is responsible for your active thoughts, ego, identity, emotions, desire, passion for life, etc. At death this mind/spirit is scattered to the wind and becomes one with the environment. Your consciousness is lost. What remains is your yin spirit. It is made of yin energy. Yin energy is like gravity, a field that pulls objects to it passively and does not move of it's own accord. Your yin spirit is responsible for observation, and memory. This is what will remain of almost all beings on earth, a burnt out shell that just observes and awaits reincarnation as a passive observer. I would say out of 7 billion people maybe a few hundred each generation fuse their yin and yang spirits as one whole and can survive death and prevent reincarnation. The practices that allow for this are disappearing quickly so likely in the future these will be lost all together. I have no idea why most people cultivate, as they don't get anything meaningful out of it. I seek to fuse the yin and yang spirits as one and continue to exist as a mind as it was before it's death, and prevent future reincarnation. I view the fusion of the yin and yang spirits as the fusion of ovum and sperm. With more cultivation the spirit is fed both yin and yang energy and develops from an embryo to a fully formed adult. If the spirit can fully mature before death it will exist as a physical entity in our realm, if it wishes to remain here. Edited August 22, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) More thoughts on the biology of the spirit: The you that thinks of you as you, isn't you. You see your entire life you've been living in a virtual reality of sorts. Don't believe me? I can prove it. This world and everything in it, everything you've ever experienced ever has occurred inside of your own mind and not external to it. You live inside your own mind, your body, your senses, your world, your emotions, your everything exists within the confines of your own mind. Everything you've ever thought, felt, experienced in any shape form or fashion has occurred inside your mind, you've never seen anything external to yourself. You've been looking into the depths of your own mind since the moment of your birth. The world you see when you look around you, that is happening inside your mind, not external to it. It is a simulated reality, a reflection of reality. Your neurons are individually intelligent beings that are networked together much like we are via our internet, exchanging information with pulses of energy through neural nets. This creates an energetic holographic experience we call reality. It isn't reality though. It is purely an internal mental phenomenon. You do indeed live inside a virtual reality, merely a reflection of actual reality. This is alluded to by Plato in his cave allegory, as well as Mahayana Buddhist teachings. This virtual reality you live in is made of pure energy, not matter. "Your body is empty; emptiness is your body. Emptinessis nothing but your body, and your body is nothing but emptiness." "Every existing thing is emptiness." "There are no eyes; no ears; no nose; no tongue; no body; no mind; nothing to see; nothing to hear; nothing to smell; nothing to taste; nothing to touch; and nothing to think of." "There is no part of you that sees. There is no part of you that is aware of what you see; and this is true all the way up to the part of you that thinks, and the part of you that is aware that you are thinking." -Buddha (quoted from The Heart Sutra) "All existing things are such that no living being exists, and nothing that lives exists, and no person exists." "A mind which is past is non-existent. And a mind in the future is non-existent. And a mind that is going on at the present is non-existent as well." "At that moment there came into my mind no conception of a self, nor of a sentient being, nor of a living being, nor of a person —I had no conception at all. But neither did I have no conception." "Bodhisattvas give all that they have, for the sake of every living being. And this same conception of anyone as a living being is a conception that does not exist; when the Buddha(One Gone) Thus speaks of "every living being," they too are living beings that do not even exist." -Buddha quoted from the diamond sutra Suffering alone exists, none who suffer;The deed there is, but no doer thereof; Nirvana is, but no one seeking it; The Path there is, but none who travel it." -Buddha quoted from the (Visuddhimagga) The Path of Purification sutra Edited August 22, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted August 21, 2012 name='More_Pie_Guy' timestamp='1345591852' post='355087']You are alive because you have two spirits or minds, a yang mind/spirit and a yin mind/spirit. The yang mind/spirit is what is reading these words and making sense of them, right now you are in your yang mind/spirit/consciousness. Your yang mind/spirit is made of yang energy. Yang energy is like sunlight, it is active and moves of it's own accord. The yang mind/spirit is responsible for your active thoughts, ego, identity, emotions, desire, passion for life, etc. At death this mind/spirit is scattered to the wind and becomes one with the environment. Your consciousness is lost. What remains is your yin spirit. It is made of yin energy. Yin energy is like gravity, a field that pulls objects to it passively and does not move of it's own accord. Your yin spirit is responsible for observation, and memory. This is what will remain of almost all beings on earth, a burnt out shell that just observes and awaits reincarnation as a passive observer. I would say out of 7 billion people maybe a few hundred each generation fuse their yin and yang spirits as one whole and can survive death and prevent reincarnation. The practices that allow for this are disappearing quickly so likely in the future these will be lost all together. I have no idea why most people cultivate, as they don't get anything meaningful out of it. I seek to fuse the yin and yang spirits as one and continue to exist as a mind as it was before it's death, and prevent future reincarnation. [/b] it is a good theory, i do not offer an alternative and still after reading this my mind went to chapter 54 ttc. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 21, 2012 More thoughts on the topic. You are information, not physical matter. 98% of your body is replaced with new atoms each year. You are flowing, a happening, not a thing. If you look at water sculptures this is more an accurate representation of what you are, than a stone sculpture. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted August 21, 2012 More thoughts on the topic. You are information, not physical matter. 98% of your body is replaced with new atoms each year. You are flowing, a happening, not a thing. If you look at water sculptures this is more an accurate representation of what you are, than a stone sculpture. you are stating the obvious. very basic stuff. even if so many arnt aware of these. i still say cultivate Te. just for the heck of it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) You are borg, the collective consciousness of your cells.Each and every one of your cells is an independently intelligent being. Every cell in your being is interconnected and in communication with one another by nerves and biochemical feedback loops. You are a living breathing society of beings, and what you think of as you is result of their intercommunication and coordination. It is exactly the same as what we are doing here, on the internet. We too give rise to a larger intelligence that we are unaware of, and as we become more advanced and interconnected we as a species will become more organismic. Edited August 22, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
