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#33 Marblehead

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:02 PM

But it may penetrate deeper ...

Damn! You sound too much like me (or I sound too much like you) when talking about Taoist Philosophy. All I could do would be agree with you so I will say nothing.

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#34 mYTHmAKER

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:20 PM

Stosh, interesting point above, "I talked to a dude that said he practiced wu wei in his martial arts,". From my understanding, and experience, we do practice wu wei while practicing our martial arts. It is in the flow, going with the flow... so that when we are in the outside world our life begins to flow with the tao.

I am not sure that I am explaining this right, but by flowing in our forms in practice, we flow in life a little easier. Wu wei to me is flow, flowing with life ("letting life take its course") or being in the tao, as opposed to forcing through life.

You made some good points, thanks.

Astralc


spontaneity, appropriate in the moment :)
Each day
I
maintain
my body,
only to find
the sea once more
at my sand castle.

#35 vortex

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:55 PM

"Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
Nothing is left undone."

Nothing is done because the doer has wholeheartedly vanished into the deed; the fuel has been conpletely transformed into flame. This "nothing" is, in fact, everything.

Non-duality = Non-do-ality
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. - Carl Jung
The ability to see in realtime that experience is not self is called enlightenment. - Kenneth Folk
Knowledge can be taught, but skill must be practiced.
Donít move the body Ė you train your Qi. Donít move your mind Ė you train your Spirit. - Fong Ha
I used to sit in full-lotus even on the can but there's not a lot of space in my bathroom. - drewhempel

#36 Stosh

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:41 AM

Damn! You sound too much like me (or I sound too much like you) when talking about Taoist Philosophy. All I could do would be agree with you so I will say nothing.


It is Refreshing to get some agreement
some twenty years of knowing
everyone disagrees with me
toughened me about it but I try to keep that doorway open
that someday I wont be the only dude in the sect :)

As far as saying nothing goes,
I may do a bit more of it now myself
If even cd cant explain away the logical inconsistencies
then I might as well stop looking for someone
that could bring me "into the fold" of mainstream Taoism

I dont look on Tao as superstition
I see it as factual sociological etc just
as other folks do look at any of the sciences
It makes it real and "Present" for me

I cant abide taking someones word for it just
because they cant explain it
Thats superstition
and though it could be based in truth
the truth is truth
and superstition
is for those who like it.
And I Do think there is objective truth
but it aint simple.

"let nature take its course"?
Sure , maybe thats the only point one person
can derive from that entire work.
I see other stuff and I am not busy trying
to be a sage.

There are those anecdotes about the virtues of being useless
, not saying anything that can make a difference etc
having no influence on things around you
and I agree that sometimes its valid
but then theres all those other times it is not valid

Regarding CD
I see each of us figuratively
with a glass of filthy water in front of us
which just WILL not settle Out
I see the dirt in it and accept it
He doesnt accept the dirt and so doesnt see it
Either way it doesnt matter
We both end up having to drink it :)
Stosh

Edited by Stosh, 04 June 2012 - 03:42 AM.


#37 Stosh

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:45 AM

spontaneity, appropriate in the moment :)

I agreee with that heartily

"Circumstance says if we are fit
of body soul or even wit"


#38 dawei

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 03:31 PM

One interferes merely by existing

Exactly. Interfering can be quite natural; just look to nature as you point out.

Showing its relation to natural or spontaneous action is a step in the right direction; Just as Dao is better understood once De is brought into the picture, thus Wu Wei is better understood when Zi Ran is brought in.

While the DDJ compares Wu Wei to water and its ability to 'yield' some have taken this as the 'way' for humans to proceed and be the basis of their action; as yielding. I don't agree since that is the 'way' for water and is an illustration of how to follow one's own way; Don't follow water, follow your own 'way'. Which implies we need to simply look within and stop trying to find it outside of ourselves.

I think when one is acting (so yes, there is action) without the command of the [monkey] mind and instead from that inner sense which is connected to that natural, spontaneous guiding motion which is the same as when water flows, a flower blossoms, lightning strikes, a bird goes south...

In such a scenario, one doesn't care or act from interference, harm, effort, will, mind, etc.

And from such action will be at times interference, harm, effort, will, mind, etc.

For as long as we defined Wu Wei in human words we will find it defies it.

And it is possible I am talking more about Wei Wu Wei, but the picture gets clearer (to me) in regards to Wu Wei...

#39 Marblehead

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 04:47 PM

And it is possible I am talking more about Wei Wu Wei, ...

I too think you are and I call this living spontaneously from the heart (our inner self).

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#40 ChiDragon

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 07:11 AM

I too think you are and I call this living spontaneously from the heart (our inner self).


Yeah, I'll stab a knife into your heart and call it's natural from my heart.... :lol:

Edited by ChiDragon, 06 June 2012 - 07:19 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#41 ChiDragon

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 07:55 AM

Regarding CD
I see each of us figuratively
with a glass of filthy water in front of us
which just WILL not settle Out
I see the dirt in it and accept it
He doesnt accept the dirt and so doesnt see it
Either way it doesnt matter
We both end up having to drink it
:)
Stosh


No, he doesn't because he has no intent to do so and Wu Wei about it.... :) :D :lol:
靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#42 Marblehead

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:59 AM

Yeah, I'll stab a knife into your heart and call it's natural from my heart.... :lol:

I have had so many arrows of love pierce my heart I doubt anything would stick in it now.

(Be careful with that knife, you might hurt yourself.)

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#43 Stosh

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:43 PM

Exactly. Interfering can be quite natural; just look to nature as you point out.

And it is possible I am talking more about Wei Wu Wei, but the picture gets clearer (to me) in regards to Wu Wei...


We appear to be in good accord but I am not familiar with Zi Ran yet , Ill check it out.

I kind of like the water metaphor a lot though
the reason being that water ,
could be seen to 'express its 'inner nature'
as a desire to find its level where it is,
or in the depths of the earth (finds its peace)

Otherwise it is passive to the circumstances around it.
So it embodies a metaphor for ones natural motivations
and delineates the limits of them.

To animate the idea I would possibly rephrase it as maybe
'minding ones own business.'
Staying "grounded "
'keeping it real' etc
Stosh

I found two definitions , one meaning 'let nature take its course'
and the other 'to follow ones natural course without much struggle'
Am I correct if I think you refer to the second concept?
If it is the second then I like it well. :)
could you elaborate on it.

Edited by Stosh, 06 June 2012 - 02:03 PM.


#44 Stosh

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:46 PM

Yeah, I'll stab a knife into your heart and call it's natural from my heart.... :lol:

I wouldn't believe it though.
I would consider it a temporary state :)

Edited by Stosh, 06 June 2012 - 01:47 PM.


#45 james liem

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:28 AM

In my opinion, when we have done anything and there is nothing that I haven't done, that is WU WEI....

#46 ChiDragon

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:23 AM

In my opinion, when we have done anything and there is nothing that I haven't done, that is WU WEI....

Do you see there is something really spectacular, in your opinion, about Wu Wei....??? Do you think that Lao Tze spent his whole life to come out with this simple idea was Wu Wei... ;)
靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#47 james liem

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 01:41 AM

Do you see there is something really spectacular, in your opinion, about Wu Wei....??? Do you think that Lao Tze spent his whole life to come out with this simple idea was Wu Wei... ;)


WU WEI = we have done anything and there is nothing that we haven't done, and after we done anything we can forget what was done as if we do nothing

Yes, I think that his idea about WU WEI is very simple, but is very-very difficult to apply in our daily life

#48 james liem

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 02:31 AM

I usually read that people mostly think that WU WEI means do nothing, depend on or submit to his fate,(passive way) . I don't agree with them . I think that WU WEI is a active way. We have to do many usefull things and make our life better. We have to do many good things for our lifes, our famillies and rendered considerable service to society without hoping a reward and we can forget that we have done good or helped anyone else, as if we do nothing in our society.
If we can do that way, it's called WU WEI




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