26 replies to this topic

[ChiDragon]

From what I gathered here in the forum, it seems to me some people are not very clear about the pains in the knees while doing Zhan Zhuang. I would like to hear some of the questions about that. Would you please raise questions about the knees being in pain during Zhan Zhuang or describe your experience of the knees hurting while doing the horse stance. Let's be open-minded about this and save the insults at the end. Thank you very much for your cooperation....

Edited by ChiDragon, 22 May 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Protector]

I didn't feel any knee pain but for a while my right leg would get tired before the left one, turns out I was putting more weight on it without my knowing, I just had to look down and notice misalignment
By the way, back then I would feel stress right above the knee, now I switched to 90 degrees. When that low, it's harder for my legs to move out of place and everything is excellent again

Practice in front of a mirror or have someone watch you, and be excellent to each other!

[Green Tiger]

I didn't feel any knee pain but for a while my right leg would get tired before the left one, turns out I was putting more weight on it without my knowing, I just had to look down and notice misalignment
By the way, back then I would feel stress right above the knee, now I switched to 90 degrees. When that low, it's harder for my legs to move out of place and everything is excellent again

Practice in front of a mirror or have someone watch you, and be excellent to each other!

Word. And open the hips. I had an issue with my right knee that was caused by tight hip muscles. Once I opened my hips via yoga, the knee issue improved.

I've also noticed that it can help to stand a bit pigeon-toed. That seems to help bypass the knees and send your weight directly into the ankles/feet/ground.

[ChiDragon]

sinfest...

I know your are crazy about horse stance. The highest ZZ attainment, for each leg, is to have the ankle perpendicular to the foot and the knee bent 90 degrees too.

[Protector]

Huh, sweet!

[ChiDragon]

Huh, sweet!

Yes, sweet....!!! How long can you hold in that position....???

[Protector]

The time when I was nearly standing up at around 45 degree angle I could go for 8 minutes
When I changed to 90 degrees I could go for a minute, now I'm around a minute and 45 seconds
I would stop because of the pain and barely move, I decided to go through even worse pain to increase the time
At 90 degrees the effects are a lot faster and there's more heat created compared to just muscular pain in 45 degrees
Now that it's so hooooooooooooooooot in here, it's a lot harder to do

[DAO rain TAO]

Wow!
I want to try that extreme ZZ position!

During ZZ I experience pain in the arms which I think are affected by some sort of circulation problem. ZZ could fix it for sure, but it is painful.. a lot painful.

[ChiDragon]

The time when I was nearly standing up at around 45 degree angle I could go for 8 minutes
When I changed to 90 degrees I could go for a minute, now I'm around a minute and 45 seconds
I would stop because of the pain and barely move, I decided to go through even worse pain to increase the time
At 90 degrees the effects are a lot faster and there's more heat created compared to just muscular pain in 45 degrees
Now that it's so hooooooooooooooooot in here, it's a lot harder to do

Aha...

You had jumped the gun. 1 min and 45 sec at 90 degree which mean you have not reached the highest attainment of Zuan Zhuang.

At 45 degree, you should do it until there is no pain for longer than 20 minutes. Then increase to 50 degrees until no pain for longer than 20 minutes' and then 55, 60, 65.....90 degrees. This is the progressive sequence of Zhan Zhuang practice. If you follow this procedure, then you should be able to stand at 90 degrees for a long time.

[ChiDragon]

Wow!
I want to try that extreme ZZ position!

During ZZ I experience pain in the arms which I think are affected by some sort of circulation problem. ZZ could fix it for sure, but it is painful.. a lot painful.

DAO rain TAO....

You do not and cannot jump to the extreme ZZ position with a cold joint in your knees. You must follow the ZZ sequence as I have described above. The purpose of the progressive sequence was to get rid of the pain, in the muscles and knees, slowly at each degree interval. Thus you will have no pain when you have reached the highest ZZ position.

Edited by ChiDragon, 22 May 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Protector]

It's called highest but you go lower

[ChiDragon]

You got it.........

[Ish]

sinfest...

I know your are crazy about horse stance. The highest ZZ attainment, for each leg, is to have the ankle perpendicular to the foot and the knee bent 90 degrees too.

Did you invent that "perfect" form yourself? It sounds incorrect & possible damaging according to what i've learnt.

[Green Tiger]

The time when I was nearly standing up at around 45 degree angle I could go for 8 minutes
When I changed to 90 degrees I could go for a minute, now I'm around a minute and 45 seconds
I would stop because of the pain and barely move, I decided to go through even worse pain to increase the time
At 90 degrees the effects are a lot faster and there's more heat created compared to just muscular pain in 45 degrees
Now that it's so hooooooooooooooooot in here, it's a lot harder to do

Try it against a wall some time. You should be able to quickly find any misalignment and adjust. I use the progression ChiDragon described against a wall, but rarely do I get that low without support. You've got to be loose and allow the earth to lift you, rather than forcing your leg muscles to hold you in position. That is just going to create tension. My back was somewhat messed up with to begin, though, so your mileage may vary.

[ChiDragon]

Did you invent that "perfect" form yourself? It sounds incorrect & possible damaging according to what i've learnt.

No, I did not invent it. The 90 degree ZZ attainment is not for an ordinary person. It is for someone who can do full time practice like a Buddhist monk or a Taoist priest. For health purposes, 45 degree bend for the knees is sufficed.

Here is an good example of the 90 degree ZZ at 3:35.
Ref: 90 degree Zhan zhuang

Edited by ChiDragon, 23 May 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[ChiDragon]

Try it against a wall some time. You should be able to quickly find any misalignment and adjust. I use the progression ChiDragon described against a wall, but rarely do I get that low without support. You've got to be loose and allow the earth to lift you, rather than forcing your leg muscles to hold you in position. That is just going to create tension. My back was somewhat messed up with to begin, though, so your mileage may vary.

Green Tiger...
I am sorry, I did not make myself clear. When I say do ZZ with the knees bend at 15 degree, it has to be done for weeks or months before the next increment to 20 degree and so far. That was what I meant by progressive sequence.

You see we stand on our feet with the knees in a straight position all the time. They cannot take the stress if we bend our knees all the sudden. In order for the knees to take the stress, we must work them in slowly by standing with the knees bend at the lowest degree without hurting or damaging the tissues of the knees.

The purpose of Zhan Zhuang is to strengthen the leg muscles and the knee caps. The knee caps hold all the upper body weight while the lower legs are acting like a tree root to lock them to the ground to hold the body in place. I would like to go into more details about Zhan Zhuang in the following posts. However, I still love to hear more of your interesting ideas and questions to test my basic knowledge about ZZ.

PS...
I know you are taken up Tai Ji. Did your teacher tell you to bend your knees all the time while you're do the movements. Actually, when you bend your knees while moving, you were doing dynamic ZZ instead of static ZZ.

Edited by ChiDragon, 23 May 2012 - 12:26 PM.