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#1 Aaron

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:13 AM

I have a problem with many religion's notion of enlightenment, especially when they tend to believe that enlightened people transcend the natural impulses of man. I have yet to find any proof that this is so, rather I find proof that it isn't, in particular historical evidence and news articles regarding religious authorities that have purportedly achieved enlightenment that end up doing things grossly immoral and un-compassionate in any context.

Okay, so I admit I'm assuming this, that there is the possibility that others can escape desires and wants, but if so, who are they and how did they prove this? My point of course is that because we are intrinsically tied to this world and body, there is no way of escaping the dual nature we live within, even if we are aware of the non-duality of existence.

I am well aware that the world is non-dual, not only intellectually, but also experientially. Many doubt this, that's okay, I don't need to prove it, but I did realize that for awhile I had doubts about these experiences because I failed to be free of desires and wants, of simple things like hunger. In fact I have major food issues still, which stem from growing up in poverty and not having enough food. How do I know I have these issues still? Well I had a friend reach out for my bowl of soup, wanting me to put it down and I bristled up and told him point blank, "don't touch my food." Even though I knew he didn't need or want it... it was the threat of losing the food that caused me to tense up.

So my point is that everyone has issues, regardless of their spiritual advancement and to fail to acknowledge this misleads people. The idea that we can escape all desire and suffering is not realistic, nor is there really any evidence to support that anyone has, so why do we continue to propagate it as a truth? Isn't it infinitely better to encourage people to work on their character defects, the ones that prevent them from experiencing quality in their life, without having to use misleading information to get them to do so?

Anyways, just some thoughts I was having. I'm sure some people will have ideas about this. Anyone want to take bets on who on the TTB chimes in with the absolute truth regarding this? I'm joking, that'd be a fools bet, we all know.

Aaron

Edited by Twinner, 16 April 2012 - 09:14 AM.

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#2 dwai

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:26 AM

I have a problem with many religion's notion of enlightenment, especially when they tend to believe that enlightened people transcend the natural impulses of man. I have yet to find any proof that this is so, rather I find proof that it isn't, in particular historical evidence and news articles regarding religious authorities that have purportedly achieved enlightenment that end up doing things grossly immoral and un-compassionate in any context.

Okay, so I admit I'm assuming this, that there is the possibility that others can escape desires and wants, but if so, who are they and how did they prove this? My point of course is that because we are intrinsically tied to this world and body, there is no way of escaping the dual nature we live within, even if we are aware of the non-duality of existence.

I am well aware that the world is non-dual, not only intellectually, but also experientially. Many doubt this, that's okay, I don't need to prove it, but I did realize that for awhile I had doubts about these experiences because I failed to be free of desires and wants, of simple things like hunger. In fact I have major food issues still, which stem from growing up in poverty and not having enough food. How do I know I have these issues still? Well I had a friend reach out for my bowl of soup, wanting me to put it down and I bristled up and told him point blank, "don't touch my food." Even though I knew he didn't need or want it... it was the threat of losing the food that caused me to tense up.

So my point is that everyone has issues, regardless of their spiritual advancement and to fail to acknowledge this misleads people. The idea that we can escape all desire and suffering is not realistic, nor is there really any evidence to support that anyone has, so why do we continue to propagate it as a truth? Isn't it infinitely better to encourage people to work on their character defects, the ones that prevent them from experiencing quality in their life, without having to use misleading information to get them to do so?

Anyways, just some thoughts I was having. I'm sure some people will have ideas about this. Anyone want to take bets on who on the TTB chimes in with the absolute truth regarding this? I'm joking, that'd be a fools bet, we all know.

Aaron


well don't know about the absolute truth stuff...but these habits that are ingrained into us are called Samskaras in Yogic parlance -- they are like grooves on a record...patterns that have ingrained into us (each of us have some different pattern). The way to deal with it has been for me to first recognize the patterns. Some i have overcome while others I'm still trying to work through.

The way I was able to recognize these patterns is by slowing the mind down, generating the observer who can then look at every thought that is flying by in the mind...

The weird thing is, I don't see meditation as being a necessary step to be able to do this. Just learning to observe one's own mind....quiet time helps...but not necessary.

cheers
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A sinking spiral, rising upward, it opens and closes by turns...

#3 Owledge

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:05 AM

The weird thing is, I don't see meditation as being a necessary step to be able to do this. Just learning to observe one's own mind....quiet time helps...but not necessary.

Yeah, I don't know whether people consider this advanced, but my observer is active a lot during normal daily activity. It's like part of my normal thought process. I guess it's called mindfulness if the observer is in sync with the current moment, which mine is not so much.

This is an outlage! I have been waiting for an owl! _____ Owl my god! ... I owl you one! _____ Yes, huuuh do!
(Pun-dit the pundit master punned it faster. But I won't bicker, 'cause I've done it quicker. One owl of just me and you and owl have punned thee, too.)
Cure ail and whine with ale and wine! --- KnOWLedge is pOWL! --- Wowl! Nowl I'm Punning Owl owlver the place!

Puneal gland wide open!!! My head's full of Dimethowltryptamine! ... Hahaha! Gonna win the Punitzer prize for that one!

Please excuse my good English.

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#4 Aaron

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:53 AM

My point is that no one can ever be free of desires or suffering, because they are intrinsic to this dual existence, with that in mind I am also asking why do religions tend to use this supposed escape as a selling point when they try to attract the masses?

Samsara is a different topic and one I don't talk about because I don't believe in it. For me it's the Buddhist's "heaven"... nice if it were true, but even better if people are desperate enough to fall for it and start worshiping your religion in the hopes of achieving it.


Aaron

Edited by Twinner, 16 April 2012 - 10:54 AM.

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#5 C T

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:41 PM

My point is that no one can ever be free of desires or suffering, because they are intrinsic to this dual existence, with that in mind I am also asking why do religions tend to use this supposed escape as a selling point when they try to attract the masses?

Samsara is a different topic and one I don't talk about because I don't believe in it. For me it's the Buddhist's "heaven"... nice if it were true, but even better if people are desperate enough to fall for it and start worshiping your religion in the hopes of achieving it.


Aaron

Buddhism teaches that desires and suffering do not arise without cause.

It also teaches that through contemplative exercises, one can access the deeper recesses of intelligence, not so much to analyze and uncover the causes, but to cultivate patience and all the other necessary qualities so that one can begin creating a new set of causes leading to a new set of result, which when applied, would eventually disband and dissolve the older, unwanted habits and tendencies.

This is why i see Buddhist psychology as more effective than contemporary psychoanalytical methods.

Om svabhava shuddha sarva dharma svabhava shuddho 'ham!
Om shunyata jnana vajra svabhava atmako 'ham! 
Om ah hum hra phat!
Om muni muni mahamuni Shakyamuniye svaha! 
  
Appearances are mind, mind is emptiness, emptiness is spontaneous presence, spontaneous presence is self-liberation.
(9th Karmapa)
 

The objects perceived by sentient beings 

are like the appearance of illusions;

Sentient beings themselves are in the nature of illusion

they all arise through dependent origination. - Nagarjuna


#6 rainbowvein

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:00 PM

This is why i see Buddhist psychology as more effective than contemporary psychoanalytical methods.

Hi CT. :) To what exactly are you referring when you say "Buddhist psychology?" :huh:

#7 dwai

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

My point is that no one can ever be free of desires or suffering, because they are intrinsic to this dual existence, with that in mind I am also asking why do religions tend to use this supposed escape as a selling point when they try to attract the masses?

Samsara is a different topic and one I don't talk about because I don't believe in it. For me it's the Buddhist's "heaven"... nice if it were true, but even better if people are desperate enough to fall for it and start worshiping your religion in the hopes of achieving it.


Aaron


Er...not sure I understand what you mean. Can you elaborate about how religions tend to use this supposed escape? Escape from what? Escape to where? How can one escape him/herself?
--
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#8 tulku

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:32 PM

I have a problem with many religion's notion of enlightenment, especially when they tend to believe that enlightened people transcend the natural impulses of man. I have yet to find any proof that this is so, rather I find proof that it isn't, in particular historical evidence and news articles regarding religious authorities that have purportedly achieved enlightenment that end up doing things grossly immoral and un-compassionate in any context.

Okay, so I admit I'm assuming this, that there is the possibility that others can escape desires and wants, but if so, who are they and how did they prove this? My point of course is that because we are intrinsically tied to this world and body, there is no way of escaping the dual nature we live within, even if we are aware of the non-duality of existence.

I am well aware that the world is non-dual, not only intellectually, but also experientially. Many doubt this, that's okay, I don't need to prove it, but I did realize that for awhile I had doubts about these experiences because I failed to be free of desires and wants, of simple things like hunger. In fact I have major food issues still, which stem from growing up in poverty and not having enough food. How do I know I have these issues still? Well I had a friend reach out for my bowl of soup, wanting me to put it down and I bristled up and told him point blank, "don't touch my food." Even though I knew he didn't need or want it... it was the threat of losing the food that caused me to tense up.

So my point is that everyone has issues, regardless of their spiritual advancement and to fail to acknowledge this misleads people. The idea that we can escape all desire and suffering is not realistic, nor is there really any evidence to support that anyone has, so why do we continue to propagate it as a truth? Isn't it infinitely better to encourage people to work on their character defects, the ones that prevent them from experiencing quality in their life, without having to use misleading information to get them to do so?

Anyways, just some thoughts I was having. I'm sure some people will have ideas about this. Anyone want to take bets on who on the TTB chimes in with the absolute truth regarding this? I'm joking, that'd be a fools bet, we all know.

Aaron


So you think you are God now and gets to decide what is misleading or true?

You get to decide only a reality based on limitations is true and a reality based on in finiteness is false?

This is why I say humans do not have the wisdom to become multi-dimensional beings free of samsara.

Or are you trying to brainwash the foolish in here into denying the Kingdom of the Universe within every Human?

Every Human can be a God.

It is the Destiny of Humanity to Evolve into Gods and the only beings fearing this Evolution are those who had chained Humanity in this Prison Planet Reality for eons.

But not to worry, in a few years time, the current Slave Keepers will be the Slaves instead and the Hunted will become the Hunters.

The Slaves will become Gods and the so-called Gods controlling this Prison Planet will become Slaves instead.

This, I can promise you with my life.

Edited by tulku, 16 April 2012 - 02:36 PM.

Ana Beko'ach Gedulat Yeminechah Tatir Tzerurah
Kabel Rinat Amechah Sagvenu Taharenu Nora
Na Gibor Dorshei Yechudecha Kevavat Shomrem
Barchem Taharem, Rachamei Tzidkatekhah Tamid Gomlem,
Chasin Kadosh Berov Tuvcha Nahel Adatecha
Yachid Ge'eh Le'amcha P'neh Zochrei Kedushatecha
Shavatenu Kabel Ushma Tza'akatenu Yode'a Ta'alumot
Baruch Shem Kevod Malchutoh Le'olam Va'ed

Every Moment, Every Breadth, Every Thought

#9 Mokona

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:52 PM

So you think you are God now and gets to decide what is misleading or true?

You get to decide only a reality based on limitations is true and a reality based on in finiteness is false?

This is why I say humans do not have the wisdom to become multi-dimensional beings free of samsara.

Or are you trying to brainwash the foolish in here into denying the Kingdom of the Universe within every Human?

Every Human can be a God.

It is the Destiny of Humanity to Evolve into Gods and the only beings fearing this Evolution are those who had chained Humanity in this Prison Planet Reality for eons.

But not to worry, in a few years time, the current Slave Keepers will be the Slaves instead and the Hunted will become the Hunters.

The Slaves will become Gods and the so-called Gods controlling this Prison Planet will become Slaves instead.

This, I can promise you with my life.


What?
Reality is awesome.

#10 OldChi

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:03 PM

I think the personality is always flawed because it is something material. But we are not our personality even though we act through it. Just my opinion

-My 2 cents, Peace

#11 Owledge

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:07 PM

What?

... the fuck?! :lol:

This is an outlage! I have been waiting for an owl! _____ Owl my god! ... I owl you one! _____ Yes, huuuh do!
(Pun-dit the pundit master punned it faster. But I won't bicker, 'cause I've done it quicker. One owl of just me and you and owl have punned thee, too.)
Cure ail and whine with ale and wine! --- KnOWLedge is pOWL! --- Wowl! Nowl I'm Punning Owl owlver the place!

Puneal gland wide open!!! My head's full of Dimethowltryptamine! ... Hahaha! Gonna win the Punitzer prize for that one!

Please excuse my good English.

PinkiePie_trampoline_sig.gif


#12 tulku

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:08 PM

What?


You can't hear the Judgement coming?
Ana Beko'ach Gedulat Yeminechah Tatir Tzerurah
Kabel Rinat Amechah Sagvenu Taharenu Nora
Na Gibor Dorshei Yechudecha Kevavat Shomrem
Barchem Taharem, Rachamei Tzidkatekhah Tamid Gomlem,
Chasin Kadosh Berov Tuvcha Nahel Adatecha
Yachid Ge'eh Le'amcha P'neh Zochrei Kedushatecha
Shavatenu Kabel Ushma Tza'akatenu Yode'a Ta'alumot
Baruch Shem Kevod Malchutoh Le'olam Va'ed

Every Moment, Every Breadth, Every Thought

#13 Aetherous

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:15 PM

One school I belong to claims (in my own words and understanding) that by attempting to stop cultivating bad things, and trying to cultivate good things only, the dual being eventually becomes dominated by the good...so instead of the animal instincts and drives sometimes controlling the person, the soul and its intuition and intelligence lead the way. These tame "the beast" naturally. Without effort, once you reach that stage of cultivation. Then you have a spiritual human being, no longer conflicted internally...no longer of a dual nature.

But yeah, I agree that "we all have issues".

It also teaches that through contemplative exercises, one can access the deeper recesses of intelligence, not so much to analyze and uncover the causes, but to cultivate patience and all the other necessary qualities so that one can begin creating a new set of causes leading to a new set of result, which when applied, would eventually disband and dissolve the older, unwanted habits and tendencies.


This is in line with the above. :)

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#14 thelerner

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:09 PM

You can't hear the Judgement coming?

Personally no. But I get your point that there quite likely there are some out there who have no issues and they're just not posting :).. and in our general sphere of knowledge.
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#15 C T

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:51 PM

Hi CT. :) To what exactly are you referring when you say "Buddhist psychology?" :huh:

Jack Kornfield explains over 12 ten-minute YT parts what Buddhist psychology is.

Please explore and form your own conclusion:

Part One:

Om svabhava shuddha sarva dharma svabhava shuddho 'ham!
Om shunyata jnana vajra svabhava atmako 'ham! 
Om ah hum hra phat!
Om muni muni mahamuni Shakyamuniye svaha! 
  
Appearances are mind, mind is emptiness, emptiness is spontaneous presence, spontaneous presence is self-liberation.
(9th Karmapa)
 

The objects perceived by sentient beings 

are like the appearance of illusions;

Sentient beings themselves are in the nature of illusion

they all arise through dependent origination. - Nagarjuna


#16 Simple_Jack

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:55 PM

I have a problem with many religion's notion of enlightenment, especially when they tend to believe that enlightened people transcend the natural impulses of man. I have yet to find any proof that this is so, rather I find proof that it isn't, in particular historical evidence and news articles regarding religious authorities that have purportedly achieved enlightenment that end up doing things grossly immoral and un-compassionate in any context.

Okay, so I admit I'm assuming this, that there is the possibility that others can escape desires and wants, but if so, who are they and how did they prove this? My point of course is that because we are intrinsically tied to this world and body, there is no way of escaping the dual nature we live within, even if we are aware of the non-duality of existence.

I am well aware that the world is non-dual, not only intellectually, but also experientially. Many doubt this, that's okay, I don't need to prove it, but I did realize that for awhile I had doubts about these experiences because I failed to be free of desires and wants, of simple things like hunger. In fact I have major food issues still, which stem from growing up in poverty and not having enough food. How do I know I have these issues still? Well I had a friend reach out for my bowl of soup, wanting me to put it down and I bristled up and told him point blank, "don't touch my food." Even though I knew he didn't need or want it... it was the threat of losing the food that caused me to tense up.

So my point is that everyone has issues, regardless of their spiritual advancement and to fail to acknowledge this misleads people. The idea that we can escape all desire and suffering is not realistic, nor is there really any evidence to support that anyone has, so why do we continue to propagate it as a truth? Isn't it infinitely better to encourage people to work on their character defects, the ones that prevent them from experiencing quality in their life, without having to use misleading information to get them to do so?

Anyways, just some thoughts I was having. I'm sure some people will have ideas about this. Anyone want to take bets on who on the TTB chimes in with the absolute truth regarding this? I'm joking, that'd be a fools bet, we all know.

Aaron

That's your problem. Instead of speculating about this: You should be focused on proving for yourself, whether it is possible to break the cycle of continually falling into your own habitual propensities, instincts and tendencies.

EDIT: Sentence structure.

Edited by Simple_Jack, 16 April 2012 - 04:58 PM.

When this exists, that exists;

with the arising of this, that arises.

When this does not exist, that does not exist;

with the cessation of this, that ceases. ~ Shakyamuni Buddha





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