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#33 Ya Mu

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:26 PM

Don't know about serious illness, but I have worked on people with pains etc and they all claim that they can feel something move out of their body and me being able to affect them without touching them physically and they get relief (sometimes temporary and sometimes permanent)...

Placebo vs non-placebo...now that question is interesting. If something helps you heal, so what? Placebo is a term to explain something that doesn't have a known scientific explanation in context of healing. Any healing is always going to be a combination of the healer, patient and medicine. If the healer is sending a "message" via whatever form to the patient, the patient's consciousness is also working to accept that message (at whatever level) and working with the treatment and the healer.

Yes, for me as well I have seen that most people feel the qi moving into the area pf pain and feel the sick qi leaving.

I also have no problem with placebo effect and agree with you guys that say if it heals, does it matter?. Goodness, we are talking about problems that have tremendous effect on people's lives, so if they get better by believing that they will if they go bury an egg under the full moon and they do so then by all means it is a grand thing.

I guess it kinda depends on one's definition of "placebo". I personally have always considered placebo effect to be mind-body medicine. In other words, for it to work a belief that it will work needs to be established. And since the medical qigong that I teach does not depend on belief (animals have no belief one way or the other)I say it is most definitely not a placebo effect.

That great source of info :rolleyes: , wikipedia says this:

"A placebo ( /pləˈsiboʊ/; Latin: I shall please[2]) is a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient. Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect.
In medical research, placebos are given as control treatments and depend on the use of measured deception."

By this definition, by the fact that it works on animals with no belief as well as people who are of the definitely-by-god-you-must-be-shitting-me-you-fucking-idiot non-believer ilk, medical qigong is not a placebo.

Edit: For a contrary opinion, there are those that believe this is what a placebo is:

Edited by Ya Mu, 23 February 2012 - 12:31 PM.


#34 humbleone

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:53 PM

The placebo effect is interesting and could be investigated if it were really that easy.


Speaking of the placebo effect.

Well, just to share, my five year old daughter suffers from Psoriasis. She develops these small patches on her hands, arms and legs.

I asked kempomaster, a student of YaMu, to do a healing. A distant healing at that, we are in New York, kempomaster somewhere in cow country midwest :)

My daughter was not told of the healings.

Her bedtime is 8PM on school days, the distant healing took place at 11PM during her sleep.

Two days later, 90% of psoriasis was gone. A week later now, she is still free of psoriasis.

All that was sent to kempomaster, was a photo of my daughter and a brief description.
I actually have before and after pictures, they are just amazing to look at.

I don't know what to make of all of this, its so outside my scope of understanding, but I am happy to take the positive results...

http://daoisthealingenergies.com/

Edited by humbleone, 23 February 2012 - 12:54 PM.


#35 Ya Mu

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:39 PM

Speaking of the placebo effect.

Well, just to share, my five year old daughter suffers from Psoriasis. She develops these small patches on her hands, arms and legs.

I asked kempomaster, a student of YaMu, to do a healing. A distant healing at that, we are in New York, kempomaster somewhere in cow country midwest :)

My daughter was not told of the healings.

Her bedtime is 8PM on school days, the distant healing took place at 11PM during her sleep.

Two days later, 90% of psoriasis was gone. A week later now, she is still free of psoriasis.

All that was sent to kempomaster, was a photo of my daughter and a brief description.
I actually have before and after pictures, they are just amazing to look at.

I don't know what to make of all of this, its so outside my scope of understanding, but I am happy to take the positive results...

http://daoisthealingenergies.com/

Glad your daughter is better! A smiling 5 year old - priceless!
These are the type of results that all students of this lineage have. Both Brion & Jim who are listed in the above website have an outstanding result rate; they both are graduates of my medical qigong program and have my endorsement. Since I am semi-retired from clinic to concentrate on teaching I refer to these guys as well as other students quite a bit.

I do realize that medical qigong can seem to be some type of fantastical & majical thing. But I can assure you that it is a science & healing art form of the highest order that comes direct from a hospital based environment. And I firmly believe that, in time, perhaps not in my lifetime but mark my words, western science will be able to explain it and possibly correctly model it.

And, it is not placebo. :)

#36 Informer

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:10 PM

Yes, for me as well I have seen that most people feel the qi moving into the area pf pain and feel the sick qi leaving.

I also have no problem with placebo effect and agree with you guys that say if it heals, does it matter?. Goodness, we are talking about problems that have tremendous effect on people's lives, so if they get better by believing that they will if they go bury an egg under the full moon and they do so then by all means it is a grand thing.

I guess it kinda depends on one's definition of "placebo". I personally have always considered placebo effect to be mind-body medicine. In other words, for it to work a belief that it will work needs to be established. And since the medical qigong that I teach does not depend on belief (animals have no belief one way or the other)I say it is most definitely not a placebo effect.

That great source of info :rolleyes: , wikipedia says this:

"A placebo ( /pləˈsiboʊ/; Latin: I shall please[2]) is a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient. Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect.
In medical research, placebos are given as control treatments and depend on the use of measured deception."

By this definition, by the fact that it works on animals with no belief as well as people who are of the definitely-by-god-you-must-be-shitting-me-you-fucking-idiot non-believer ilk, medical qigong is not a placebo.

Edit: For a contrary opinion, there are those that believe this is what a placebo is:



Then doing it yourself would be even more powerful than belief. From this would come actual knowing. People really would live longer, imo. Don't take what I say as an insult pls.

I just think these are important points everyone may want to think about, whatever level you think about it on.

#37 idiot_stimpy

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:19 PM

And, it is not placebo. :)



It could be suggested that all is placebo, as all is mind.

#38 Ya Mu

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:20 PM

It could be suggested that all is placebo, as all is mind.

And it could be suggested that mind is the single most limiting factor.

#39 idiot_stimpy

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:12 PM

And it could be suggested that mind is the single most limiting factor.


Maybe infinite in possibilities with extremely limited being one of them.

#40 chris d

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:19 PM

My experience is that there is no placebo effect in medical qigong - that is the person self-heals - apparently. As humbleone says, it is difficult to fool a child.

That it is more like a mechanical process - qi is sent from here to there, sick qi is pulled and so on.

My questioning - not apparent from my post - is more like, even though we can see what is going on, the effect and so on, does not mean that there are no "behind the scenes" things going on.

So a more contemplative nature of enquiry as in "just because I can see time moving on my watch and it feels like time is absolutely real" then it is fact so.

My own experience with western medicine in daily life is that is quite limited. Very "let's just try this" from a apparent diagnosis and many times it fails and with bad side effects. The good thing about medical qigong is that there are no side effects other than good ones.

Entrainments for neutrality, anxiety and depression clearing. 

Improved intuition, clearing the amygdala. 

Improved creativity, more spontaneity.

Primal rage, inner critic, self-image.

 

http://insightguide.net/entrainments/


#41 Informer

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:23 PM

And it could be suggested that mind is the single most limiting factor.


It is not mind, but awareness. It can be easy to confuse.

#42 idiot_stimpy

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:39 PM

It is not mind, but awareness. It can be easy to confuse.


what is the nature of the mind when there are no thoughts.

#43 Informer

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:45 PM

Haha, that depends on the tradition you choose or chose to believe :P

It is awareness, like water ^.~

#44 Ya Mu

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:20 AM

Maybe infinite in possibilities with extremely limited being one of them.

Always finite. But yes, with many possibilities. Nothing wrong with mind-body medicine. I just don't practice it. Would rather leap into the non-linear.
Pitfalls of Mind

My experience is that there is no placebo effect in medical qigong - that is the person self-heals - apparently. As humbleone says, it is difficult to fool a child.

That it is more like a mechanical process - qi is sent from here to there, sick qi is pulled and so on.

My questioning - not apparent from my post - is more like, even though we can see what is going on, the effect and so on, does not mean that there are no "behind the scenes" things going on.

So a more contemplative nature of enquiry as in "just because I can see time moving on my watch and it feels like time is absolutely real" then it is fact so.

My own experience with western medicine in daily life is that is quite limited. Very "let's just try this" from a apparent diagnosis and many times it fails and with bad side effects. The good thing about medical qigong is that there are no side effects other than good ones.

Yes, I have hated that "let's try this" approach in western medicine. Every single time I have ever been to a western doctor, with the exception of two times, I have been left with a feeling that I just attended a circus. That said, western medicine offers some powerful mojo when it works and should not be discounted. An example; if if I had of not seen that one physician I mention above I would be dead. I like the concept of world medicine. If we took all of what works and combined it into a system...no more circus.

"...does not mean that there are no "behind the scenes" things going on"
:)

It is not mind, but awareness. It can be easy to confuse.

This is true. Mind is linear and limited. Awareness is non-linear, beyond mind, and infinite.

#45 dwai

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:34 AM

The placebo effect is interesting and could be investigated if it were really that easy.

Maybe the placebo effect is just another effect of the "law" of attraction, that is collapsing the quantum mechanical equations of reality in real time.

I wonder how people can dismiss the real reason behind the healing as in "so what" when this is a forum where reality is being investigated?

If we stop asking questions then we quickly enter religious territory and suddenly find beliefs stuck inside our head without any valid reasoning behind.

If we say so what, then we can just use the current system, you know aspirin cures headaches, so who cares?

:) my intent was to type "if a so-called placebo heals, so what is the problem with that?"

I have seen the prime target of placebo naysayrs, aka homeopathy do miraculous cures. In hands of an accomplished practitioner, it is often pure magic! I think the root of problems with science today is the cartesian divide. The mind and body are considered different. But if investigated through other lenses, the body and mind re one. The mind hold immense potential to heal...yi leads qi. Qi imbalance causes disease. By using yi to move qi, we can heal ourselves. But its hard for mot people to do without proper foundation...since the stupid crtesian chasm shows up all the time, fooling us into negating the mind with our mind.
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#46 Kempomaster

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:00 AM

Lots of debate - is it a placebo effect, was it the mind, what was it?

These are difficult questions to give a 100% proof positive cause and effect.

For most medicines - Western Medicines if you read the package insert for uncover the action of the Medicine - you will read that the medicine is believed to do -- such and such -- but may have other actions as well. And in some cases the mode of action is uncertain.

Those of experienced in Medical Qigong and The Taoist Neuroenergetic Treatment know that we don't need proof - placebo or otherwise that what we do works. We are treating the whole person - mind, body, spirit, and in accordance with God's wishes for the best outcome. There may be lessons for both the healer and recipient in the treatment.

Placebo or otherwise - it doesnt matter as long as we accomplish the desired outcome. Placebo effect with Western Medicine generally occurs up to 50% of the time -- then if you follow the cases studied this effect will diminish as time goes on - the patient figures out they are on placebo.


What then is the success rate that we see in the Stillness-Movement Lineage -- I have seen 95% or better success rate -- some issues may take a few treatments to get the results we are after and those that didn't have great success are generally attributed to a patient giving up after 1 treatment.

I always expect amazing results and I am always amazed when I see these results.

I have carried out the same results with animals -- in particular dogs and horses.

Several of the horses treated - in my opinion - can see Qi. I treated the horses with the Taoist Technique I learned from Michael - the horses owners were intriqued at what was happening - then as soon as I started projecting Qi - the horse whipped his head around to see what was going on and several of his stable mates poked their heads out of the stalls and all started talking to each other. I know it was all horse sense - but the horse being treated did not want me to leave. AND BY THE WAY - a hind quarter problem that he had had for 2 years - that an equine vet, a chiropractor, a acupuncturist, all couldn't help -- was cleared with one treatment. His owner - happens to be a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine was completely amazed and has referred me to other horse owners to use this amazing medicine.

So, can you have a placebo effect on animals? Ask the horses and see what they tell you -- perhaps they like the Qi treatment so much they decided to get better!

Thanks,

Brion aka Kempomaster

#47 Jetsun

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:13 AM

I would expect animals are far easier to heal than humans with energy healing because they don't have the resistances and attachments than many of us humans have which can block healing.

#48 dwai

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:21 AM

I would expect animals are far easier to heal than humans with energy healing because they don't have the resistances and attachments than many of us humans have which can block healing.


yup...i would tend to agree. I know back when I used to practice outside the apartment where I lived, my neighbor's dog (a large labrador) would step out of the door and stand and watch me. Also, I've had occasions when I was practicing outside my house and deep in meditation and I saw a rabbit, squirrels standing around a certain invisible circle around me and staring.

I have had a skunk walk right past me without spraying while I was standing and meditating...birds gathering around, etc.

My teacher says that this happens a lot when you are really connected to Dao.
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