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The diaphragm in reverse breathing


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#81 lifeforce

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:05 PM

This is the version of the six healing sounds that I practice.
I particularly like the preparations done before the actual sounds are performed.
A full session of 36 repetitions of the sounds can be a very good meditation session.

#82 ricemaster

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

Hi all,

As the OP it would be great if you can move different discussions (healing sounds etc) to other threads.

Still looking for information about the movement of the diaphragm in reverse/embryonic breathing.

Thanks!

#83 ChiDragon

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:04 AM

In order to understand what is reverse diaphragmatic breathing, one must know what is the basic definition of diaphragmatic breathing to begin with.

Diaphragmatic breathing, abdominal breathing, belly breathing or deep breathing is breathing that is done by contracting the diaphragm, a muscle located horizontally between the chest cavity and stomach cavity. Air enters the lungs and the belly expands during this type of breathing.

This deep breathing is marked by expansion of the abdomen rather than the chest when breathing. It is considered by some to be a healthier and fuller way to ingest oxygen[1], and is sometimes used as a therapy for hyperventilation, anxiety disorders and stuttering.


Ref:Diaphragm Breathing


To start fresh, please disregard what you were told and unlearn what you had taught and use the definition as the basic fundamental understanding. Thus you can go a long way from here.

Edited by ChiDragon, 29 February 2012 - 10:47 AM.

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#84 joeblast

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

That was long ago established - I am curious why you keep returning to natural abdominal breathing, the question was regarding reverse - or are you agreeing with me regarding the motion of the diaphragm that little changes between the two notions? :)

#85 Aetherous

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:29 PM

Something to keep in mind is that Wikipedia is not an accurate source for health information.

belly breathing or deep breathing is breathing that is done by contracting the diaphragm


This also happens in reverse breathing; perhaps even more so.

...to be a healthier and fuller way to ingest oxygen[1],


Not necessarily true. Is there a single peer reviewed study that shows this in comparison to other types of breathing? Be careful about spreading disinformation...enough people do it already. Spread truth!

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#86 ChiDragon

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:19 PM

That was long ago established - I am curious why you keep returning to natural abdominal breathing, the question was regarding reverse - or are you agreeing with me regarding the motion of the diaphragm that little changes between the two notions? :)


The motion of the diaphragm does not change the thought of RB. The difference is in the breathing when one inhale or exhale depends what position of the diaphragm was in. It seems to me I did not get my point across. However, I do not wish you to agree with me, but just try to understand what I am saying.

Edited by ChiDragon, 01 March 2012 - 12:04 AM.

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#87 joeblast

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:24 AM

The difference is truly trivial if we are analyzing and reducing the constituent motions to their individual components. The physical layer will correspond to the energetic layer. Please explain what you mean by "the thought of RB" - of course the intention is different but how that actually translates to the physical motion of the diaphragm is trivial in that it is other parts that change their motion, the diaphragm moves in concert. So even though there is a minute difference in how the diaphragm actually moves, so far as the diaphragm itself is concerned its motion is no different for natural vs reverse - it descends on the inhale.

I think I've explained this enough different ways, but it simply boils down to two big things: the lungs will not fill sufficiently for a "breath" if the diaphragm doesn not descend, and if all parts do not compress toward the dantien then the compression is undermined and inefficient.

#88 ChiDragon

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

Please explain what you mean by "the thought of RB"

Under normal breathing(NB), the abdomen was FULLY EXpanded and INdented during INhalation and EXhalation, respectively.

This is "the thought of RB"
Under reverse breathing(RB), the abdomen CAN BE FULLY or PARTIALLY EXpanded and INdented during EXhalation and INhalation, respectively.

The purpose of RB, for a martial artist, is to exchange gas in the lungs at a faster rate to regenerate the energy that was released from a fast blow. So, the next blow can be continued without any hesitation. RB will make the body to be at its strongest at the moment.

Ref:

Edited by ChiDragon, 01 March 2012 - 11:09 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#89 dwai

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:28 PM

Under normal breathing(NB), the abdomen was FULLY EXpanded and INdented during INhalation and EXhalation, respectively.

This is "the thought of RB"
Under reverse breathing(RB), the abdomen CAN BE FULLY or PARTIALLY EXpanded and INdented during EXhalation and INhalation, respectively.

The purpose of RB, for a martial artist, is to exchange gas in the lungs at a faster rate to regenerate the energy that was released from a fast blow. So, the next blow can be continued without any hesitation. RB will make the body to be at its strongest at the moment.

Ref:


Er...NB is belly expanding out during inhalation and contracting during exhalation. RB is belly contracting during inhalation and expanding during exhalation.

Your thought of RB seems to the be same as NB. I suppose that was a typo?

During RB in some cases we breath into (contract the chi into) the entire spine and exhale (expanding chi out from) the the entire spine (a kind of condensing breathing)...

Edited by dwai, 01 March 2012 - 01:32 PM.

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#90 joeblast

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:37 PM

Under normal breathing(NB), the abdomen was FULLY EXpanded and INdented during INhalation and EXhalation, respectively.

This is "the thought of RB"
Under reverse breathing(RB), the abdomen CAN BE FULLY or PARTIALLY EXpanded and INdented during EXhalation and INhalation, respectively.

The purpose of RB, for a martial artist, is to exchange gas in the lungs at a faster rate to regenerate the energy that was released from a fast blow. So, the next blow can be continued without any hesitation. RB will make the body to be at its strongest at the moment.

Ref:

All of your evidence agrees with me - I'm being corralled into thinking you just have some language barrier here.

#91 ricemaster

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:56 PM

Personally I tend to agree with joeblast here, that the diaphragm in RB moves the same as in NB (down on inhale).

In fact, I believe it is impossible to inhale without the diaphragm descending, as it is the contraction (descent/flattening) of the diaphragm which is the first in the chain of events which results in inhalation.

However what we really need is references to known teachers/writings about this.

#92 ChiDragon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:50 AM

See for yourself...at 2:00 for explanation.


Explanation at 2.40

Edited by ChiDragon, 02 March 2012 - 01:16 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
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#93 joeblast

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:34 AM

Keep tryin! What do you think the effects on the diaphragm are from the way these guys are explaining? (Its not contrary to how I've described it. :) )

#94 steve

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:37 AM

One interesting benefit of reverse breathing is that is works to strengthen the diaphragm and accessory inspiration muscles (esp quadratus lumborum and iliopsoas).
During NAB, the abdomen relaxes so there is minimal resistance to the activity of diaphragm contraction.

During RAB, the increased abdominal pressure works to resist the activity of diaphragm contraction providing an isometric exercise for the diagphragm. This resistance seems to be why we engage the accessory muscles more with RAB. They are not needed as much with NAB.

That said, there is also a method of practicing RAB where the abdomen does not contract so much but the empasis is placed on inhaling into the chest and relaxing the abdomen on exhale. This does not lead to as much work for the diaphragm but is valuable in internal work.
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#95 ChiDragon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:01 AM

Personally I tend to agree with joeblast here, that the diaphragm in RB moves the same as in NB (down on inhale).

In fact, I believe it is impossible to inhale without the diaphragm descending, as it is the contraction (descent/flattening) of the diaphragm which is the first in the chain of events which results in inhalation.

However what we really need is references to known teachers/writings about this.

I think that was what has been bothering you in the first place as stated in the OP. It seems that your mind is still set at that.... :(
靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#96 don_vedo

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

Sorry, coming into this one late; haven't read through as well as I wanted but thought i'd jump in. I apologize if what I am going to say has already been said.

As taught by my teacher, most westerners stumble upon reverse breathing as a result of being "fashionable modest." People don't want to breath naturally (lower abdominal breathing) because most people are self conscious about looking "fat." It's more of a burden than a blessing.

As i've been taught, reverse breathing can have major negative effects on the nervous system if one is not ready for the reverse breath. Reverse breathing is a natural process that begins when the sympathetic nervous system is activated leading to cortisol being released into the blood which is not something one necessarily wants. Anyone who consciously exercises will tell you that when fatigue sets in and things get strenuous, the reverse breath naturally kicks in.

Although I can't find research to support my claim, I would say that the fact that no baby has ever come out reverse breathing hints at the fact that lower abdominal breathing is the natural way, and therefore reverse breathing should naturally arise instead of being training it to come about.

I guess my point for throwing all that out there is to advise people to be careful when it comes to consciously training the reverse breath. If your anything like me, it would be better to train lower abdominal breathing as opposed to the reverse breath. I unfortunately was one of those people that from an early age made a bad habit out of the reverse breath, causing shit like asthma and anxiety to pop up. Now that I am en-training the complete breath things have drastically changed for the better; asthma has pretty much disappeared and anxiety is no longer an issue.

I see where the "idea" of the reverse breath sounds cool to people who are looking to become "qigong/taoist masters" but I think the real secret is that the reverse breath will organically arise when the reverse breath is needed.

Edited by don_vedo, 02 March 2012 - 09:22 AM.

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