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The diaphragm in reverse breathing


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#1 ricemaster

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:09 PM

My first taobums post :)

I'm practicing Embryonic Breathing according to the instructions given in Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing".

I am confused about the movement of the diaphragm in reverse breathing/embryonic breathing.

When breathing in, as the lower belly and lower back move towards each other and the the perineum goes up, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

When breathing out, as the lower belly and lower back release (move away from each other) and the perineum releases down, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

Any info is very welcomed (ideally with references to the source)

Thanks !

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#2 Protector

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:17 PM

Long ago as a kid before having any sort of biology class or lesson, I never knew I even had a diaphragm

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#3 konchog uma

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:02 PM

hi ricemaster,

i believe the diaphram is moving downward, drawing in breath, and you are compressings qi at the dantian by moving in towards it from all sides.
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#4 Chang

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:32 AM

Hi Ricemaster,

You need not concern yourself with the movement of the diaphragm. It will be dictated by your breathing.

As Anamatva stated on the inbreathe the diaphragm will expand downwards stimulating the Dantien. As you exhale it will relax back.

You may find this article of interest:-

Daoist Breathing Techniques

Edited by Chang, 15 February 2012 - 03:33 AM.

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#5 joeblast

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:26 AM

I love Dr Yang's EB book. Excellent resource! Every so often I am reminded to go retrieve my copy :lol:

This particular question of movements is why it is very important to master the integration of the psoas in natural abdominal breathing (first.) When you've established that deep psoas connection I daresay it pretty much rolls nicely right over into reverse breathing because of the psoas integration. For either breath, descending the junction of the psoas & diaphragm as the motions begin. "When the breath gets very deep" "it disappears externally" anyway - that whole notion is rooted in the psoas, the more profound usage of the structure is what makes the breath very deep. The diaphragm relaxes on exhale for either breath as well.

#6 ChiDragon

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:36 AM

My first taobums post :)

I'm practicing Embryonic Breathing according to the instructions given in Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing".

I am confused about the movement of the diaphragm in reverse breathing/embryonic breathing.

1. When breathing in, as the lower belly and lower back move towards each other and the the perineum goes up, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

2. When breathing out, as the lower belly and lower back release (move away from each other) and the perineum releases down, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

Ricemaster


FYI....
1. Reverse breathing during inhalation, the diaphragm goes up.

2. Reverse breathing during exhalation, the diaphragm goes down.


Note: The diaphragm moves spontaneously, accordingly, with the movements of the abdomen.

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#7 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:00 AM

How would people describe the difference between reverse breathing and the "3 locks" type breathing described by Daniel Reid? With the 3 locks, you inhale fully, clench the a-nooos and uro-gential diaphragm, push the abdominals back in using ab-muscles, then relax everything with the exhale. This creates sort of a belly roll effect. The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head. The effect of this is mainly to massage the organs. I find it also can draw heat up up and away from yer nether regions.

I guess the first difference is that the reverse breathing is less forced..?

Edited by Harmonious Emptiness, 15 February 2012 - 09:02 AM.

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#8 joeblast

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:21 AM

FYI....
1. Reverse breathing during inhalation, the diaphragm goes up.

2. Reverse breathing during exhalation, the diaphragm goes down.


Note: The diaphragm moves spontaneously, accordingly, with the movements of the abdomen.

:huh: 1 & 2, in my experience, only happen in such a manner if the motions are completely contrived with no underlying experiential knowledge/understanding of the mechanisms thereof. If the diaphragm moves up on inhale, where is the compression? Plainspeak here would sound insulting.

#9 joeblast

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:25 AM

How would people describe the difference between reverse breathing and the "3 locks" type breathing described by Daniel Reid? With the 3 locks, you inhale fully, clench the a-nooos and uro-gential diaphragm, push the abdominals back in using ab-muscles, then relax everything with the exhale. This creates sort of a belly roll effect. The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head. The effect of this is mainly to massage the organs. I find it also can draw heat up up and away from yer nether regions.

I guess the first difference is that the reverse breathing is less forced..?

Rooting the breath at the psoas-diaphragm connection naturally produces a similar rolling effect - the motion beginning from the bottom and the wavemotion propagates upward and forward along the diaphragm, with the relax-exhale necessarily being a tad bit steeper section of ellipse than the inhale.

#10 rainbowvein

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:31 AM

This particular question of movements is why it is very important to master the integration of the psoas in natural abdominal breathing (first.)...

From my personal experience, I agree with joeblast.

Do take care of how you 'treat' your diaphragm. :)

#11 ChiDragon

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:33 AM

Daniel Reid mentioned the three locks in his book:
1. The Anal Lock
2. The Abdominal Lock
3. The Neck Lock

The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head.


I did not see anything similar to the above quote in his book(1998).

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#12 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

Rooting the breath at the psoas-diaphragm connection naturally produces a similar rolling effect - the motion beginning from the bottom and the wavemotion propagates upward and forward along the diaphragm, with the relax-exhale necessarily being a tad bit steeper section of ellipse than the inhale.


Okay, that makes some sense if I understand correctly.. Basically, the psoas diaphragm naturally lifts from the deep inhale. Seems the main difference then would be the intentional clenching, though that can require less force when using the natural lift created by the low and deep inhale. I can see how the belly naturally sinks back before the exhale when doing it this way too. That helps. Thanks!

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#13 ChiDragon

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:44 AM

:huh: 1 & 2, in my experience, only happen in such a manner if the motions are completely contrived with no underlying experiential knowledge/understanding of the mechanisms thereof. If the diaphragm moves up on inhale, where is the compression? Plainspeak here would sound insulting.


Those are the actual physical movements of the diaphragm, not by someone's experience. When the abdomen was indented, the diaphragm moves upward, the compression will take place against the lungs.


PS....
Where is the insulting coming from. I don't understand.... :wacko:

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#14 joeblast

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:55 AM

Okay, that makes some sense if I understand correctly.. Basically, the psoas diaphragm naturally lifts from the deep inhale. Seems the main difference then would be the intentional clenching, though that can require less force when using the natural lift created by the low and deep inhale. I can see how the belly naturally sinks back before the exhale when doing it this way too. That helps. Thanks!

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.

Those are the actual physical movements of the diaphragm, not by someone's experience. When the abdomen was indented, the diaphragm moves upward, the compression will take place against the lungs.


PS....
Where is the insulting coming from. I don't understand.... :wacko:

I would puke if I tried breathing like that, CD. I dont know where you are getting that from, but imho, it is absolutely erroneous. And I am going by the physical motions of my diaphragm, not somebody's theoretical understanding of how they think it should be. If you are raising your diaphragm on inhale, "ur doin it wrong." The dantien compresses, not the lungs.

#15 ChiDragon

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:07 AM

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.


I would puke if I tried breathing like that, CD. I dont know where you are getting that from, but imho, it is absolutely erroneous. And I am going by the physical motions of my diaphragm, not somebody's theoretical understanding of how they think it should be. If you are raising your diaphragm on inhale, "ur doin it wrong." The dantien compresses, not the lungs.

If you are using the Taoist mythical explanations, it is OK but I will rest my case for now.....:)

Edited by ChiDragon, 15 February 2012 - 12:53 PM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
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#16 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:14 AM

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.


okay, right, I was mixing up my anatomy.. I meant to say the uro-genital diaphragm lifts with low and deep inhales, rather than psoas which to me is normally just "the diaphragm."

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