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#33 konchog uma

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 06:26 PM

In Yiquan, when you train in zhan zhuang postures you use mental visualizations that aim at developing gradually some special sensing ability and internal power by fusing your body and mind. Visualizing means here actualizing, not merely using imagination.

When you have some good basis in zhan zhuang you go to shi li, which is an attempt to keep the internal state of feeling force, power movement in non-movement found in zhan zhuang into some slightly moving postures which means finding the non-movement into the movement and keeping the feeling of force.. You achieve this through movements accompanied by visualizations (images, feelings, forces applying to your body) that generate specific sensations. This is testing force/shi li. When good at it, it looks like what you have seen in the vid.

Difficult to explain but hope it helps


yeah that is difficult to explain, but i get it, if only intellectually. thanks :)
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#34 ChiDragon

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:08 PM

I would still to find out what makes it so powerful, much more powerful for me than say sitting crossed legged zen meditation. With Zhan Zhuang I really feel my connection to earth, although I do it on a carpet on 2nd floor :)


Did you realize that when you are standing up with the knees bent you'll have more muscle tension on your legs than sitting...??? When you are standing, all the body weights were carried by your legs as opposed to sitting which it is not. That was the difference.....:)
靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#35 bubbles

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 11:17 PM

yes right on about staying relaxed. I guess I was taken aback when I first started practising Zhan Zhuang couple of weeks ago, I found it very powerful. It disrupted my dream state at night. so I had to discontinue it.

I would still to find out what makes it so powerful, much more powerful for me than say sitting crossed legged zen meditation. With Zhan Zhuang I really feel my connection to earth, although I do it on a carpet on 2nd floor :)


I would interpret these as good signs. I guess you did zz in the evening or before going to bed. It is not recommended at the beginning because it can disturb the sleep. The energy that has been liberated through standing- even in wuji posture can be too much in the beginning. This will subside after a while and your will be able to do zz in the evening.

If you do zz in the morning, you will sleep better and have more juice during the day.
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#36 humbleone

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 05:42 AM

Thank you chi dragon and bubbles for your replies. good infomation.

As I understand, Zhan Zhuang is part of nei kung. Despite its simplicity it is considered an 'advance' method.
In couple of weeks I will be meeting with a teacher, Nei kung master, CK Chu. He actually will not let new students start without first taking a nei kung workshop. and he prefers new students start with more gentler forms of Qigong.

http://www.chutaichi.com/neikung.shtml

#37 bubbles

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 06:12 AM

Thank you chi dragon and bubbles for your replies. good infomation.

As I understand, Zhan Zhuang is part of nei kung. Despite its simplicity it is considered an 'advance' method.
In couple of weeks I will be meeting with a teacher, Nei kung master, CK Chu. He actually will not let new students start without first taking a nei kung workshop. and he prefers new students start with more gentler forms of Qigong.

http://www.chutaichi.com/neikung.shtml


Oh my goodness!
If you are going to meet Master CK Chu, it's a different story!

You will be in one of the best hands possible, lucky you :excl:
Forget all I have written so far, and just listen and follow what he will teach you. He has a very specific way of teaching zhan zhuang.
You are blessed.
Enjoy and keep us posted :)

Edited by bubbles, 27 December 2011 - 06:18 AM.

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#38 ChiDragon

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:06 AM

what is shi li? I don't understand what he is doing. Can you explain a little?


Shi Li is 使力, manipulating strength. The practitioner in the video is performing Yi Quan. He was using his Yi(intent of the mind), to control his muscles to manipulate his body strength. Another words, he is using his mind to command his body parts like his arms and fingers. His mind is telling his arms to exert a maximum body strength up to his finger tips. You can tell by the movements and the way he spreads his fingers.

Edited by ChiDragon, 27 December 2011 - 09:29 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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#39 konchog uma

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:29 AM

Shi Li is 使力, manipulating strength. The practitioner in the video is performing Yi Quan. He was using his Yi(intent of the mind), to control his muscles to manipulate his body strength. Another words, he is using his mind to command his body parts like his arms and fingers. His mind is telling his arms to exert a maximum body strength up to his finger tips. You can tell by the movements and the way he spreads his fingers.


thanks!
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#40 spiraltao

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:20 AM

I have read some articles by Doc Fai Wong in some Inside Kung Fu mags from the early nineties. I Master Doc's writings he says one absolutely can't do standing meditation correctly with the eyes open. I can't believe that I hadn't caught that way back when.




He is a tai chi guy, is this just the plum blossom tradition, in regards to keeping the eyes closed?


Can I get any opinions on this?
Absorb what is useful/Reject What is USELESS




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#41 Jeramiah Zeitigeist

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 07:01 AM

I have read some articles by Doc Fai Wong in some Inside Kung Fu mags from the early nineties. I Master Doc's writings he says one absolutely can't do standing meditation correctly with the eyes open. I can't believe that I hadn't caught that way back when.




He is a tai chi guy, is this just the plum blossom tradition, in regards to keeping the eyes closed?


Can I get any opinions on this?



I disagree !

Maybe at first its true, when the distractions of the body, and maintaining alignments, and visual disturbances in your environment can be a problem. But once you are past that stage, I think open eyes is fine.

Infact, I would say, from my own experience, I get more from standing meditation with open eyes, than with closed eyes.

I am sure I have read, somewhere, that 'open eyes' is the next level. I just can't remember where.


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chi 2012

#42 Green Tiger

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 08:35 AM

I disagree !

Maybe at first its true, when the distractions of the body, and maintaining alignments, and visual disturbances in your environment can be a problem. But once you are past that stage, I think open eyes is fine.

Infact, I would say, from my own experience, I get more from standing meditation with open eyes, than with closed eyes.

I am sure I have read, somewhere, that 'open eyes' is the next level. I just can't remember where.


I think it is easier to relax with the eyes closed, but I sometimes practice standing with my eyes open. In fact, quite often I'll practice standing in front of a full body mirror so I can check my posture.

Also, most of the Flying Phoenix standing meditations are supposed to be done with the eyes closed. The only exception is Monk Gazing at Moon.
"I don't lie.  Lying makes you tense."  -- Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi

#43 spiraltao

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 08:51 AM

Thanks for the input thus far. I certain feel more with the eyes open. I am used to closing the eyes during the sitting meditation that Sifu taught us back in 90, when I was a wee lad. I would offer an appendage (not literally), to know what I have forgotten, like the tiger form for example.



At any rate with my eyes open I have no problem visualizing my dan tian, which I DON'T do during standing meditation, just think about CALM BREATHING.



Another note, for me when the postures are done correctly there is a "feeling" that one gets that only will "click" if the posture is correct. I am sure this has already been mentioned, I haven't fully read the whole thread, so if redundant, disregard.
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#44 Yuen Biao

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:16 AM

I have read some articles by Doc Fai Wong in some Inside Kung Fu mags from the early nineties. I Master Doc's writings he says one absolutely can't do standing meditation correctly with the eyes open. I can't believe that I hadn't caught that way back when.

He is a tai chi guy, is this just the plum blossom tradition, in regards to keeping the eyes closed?

Can I get any opinions on this?


It is not just the Plum Blossom tradition at all as many other styles advocate closing the eyes. I always wondered why certain ZZ teachers taught eyes closed and others eyes open?

However from my experience Wuji and Zhan Zhuang has always been taught to me utilising eyes closed.
"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee

#45 humbleone

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:33 AM

I have been told to follow my heart in selecting practices. Zhan Zhuang tops my list! It takes me to a distant land never before visited.

So no formal training just what I can gather from books, youtube and TTB

Other who practice Zhan Zhuang, could you share a few words.

--Do most people start with a warm up exercise before ZZ? Lam Kam Chuen seems to suggest to start with basic circular knees rotation, losen the pelvic area.



--what about closing, how much time should be spent in closing? This is one area I have problems with. I seem to need a LOT of grounding. I usually do the traditional close with hands over dan tien + hands on hips and move in circular motion, again from Lam Kam Chuen.

#46 ChiDragon

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 10:02 AM

--what about closing, how much time should be spent in closing? This is one area I have problems with. I seem to need a LOT of grounding. I usually do the traditional close with hands over dan tien + hands on hips and move in circular motion, again from Lam Kam Chuen.


This is the basic fundamental closing procedure to all practices.
As soon you have released your last breath slowly, at closing, that is the end of the whole practice session.
靜觀其變 以靜制動
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Handle adversity with calmness

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#47 konchog uma

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:59 AM

I've been standing in wuji posture, or embracing the tree, for 2-3 minutes at night for the last week. Even tho I am just beginning Zhan Zhuang, I can feel there is something really potent and powerful about the practice, and today i was waiting for an elevator and other people were shuffling around and i was just standing there rooting and grounding, softening my knees and breathing from my dantian.. It felt awesome! Thanks for all the advice and help on this thread my friends. :wub: :D
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#48 spiraltao

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:34 PM

IMO, Jam Jong is the so called secret to "empty power", if I have my vocabulary correct, even though it is there for everyone to do. Just doing it is all we must do!



Keep up the good work Anamatva. I started in small increments and am now up to twenty five minutes, but not it the same posture the whole time.



Warm ups are should NOT be skipped!


[edit for warm up reminder]

Edited by jaysahnztao, 20 January 2012 - 02:42 PM.

Absorb what is useful/Reject What is USELESS




(SOMEHOW) Not gonna die 'tll I'm killed by death


BAGUAZHANG BABY


"Patience Is the GREATEST VIRTUE"




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