Jump to content


Photo

Zhan Zhuang


  • Please log in to reply
108 replies to this topic

#1 konchog uma

konchog uma

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2914 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:-
    skygazing
    soothsaying
    swashbuckling

Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:17 PM

I would like to start stance holding, and I have been reading and taking notes from Miller and Cartmell's Xing Yi Nei Kung. I was wondering if anyone who has experience with zhan zhuang recommends any other books? I have copies of Lam Kam Chuen's Way of Energy and Way of Power but haven't really gotten far into WOE, being more interested in the first book I mentioned.

So any books I should definitely read?

Anything I should definitely know?

I am thinking that starting to hold San Ti for a few minutes each day and taking it from there is good, and I also feel really comfortable in Embracing the Tree pose.

Thanks in advance :)
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#2 Encephalon

Encephalon

    Synthesist

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1878 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:47 PM

I would like to start stance holding, and I have been reading and taking notes from Miller and Cartmell's Xing Yi Nei Kung. I was wondering if anyone who has experience with zhan zhuang recommends any other books? I have copies of Lam Kam Chuen's Way of Energy and Way of Power but haven't really gotten far into WOE, being more interested in the first book I mentioned.

So any books I should definitely read?

Anything I should definitely know?

I am thinking that starting to hold San Ti for a few minutes each day and taking it from there is good, and I also feel really comfortable in Embracing the Tree pose.

Thanks in advance :)


I'm sure you'll get a half dozen reading suggestions in no time, but eventually the necessity of formal instruction will become apparent. Getting nei kung instruction has been the single most important event in my life (besides getting married, becoming a father, getting educated and getting sober!), but my recent posture tune-up was quite humbling. I thought I was making progress but was told I was merely doing "isometrics." Ouch!
He adjusted my posture imperceptibly and the bubbling spring effect kicked in after about 5 seconds. Moral of tale: read everything you can, but formal instruction. If I won the lottery I'd move to Times Square for a year and study nei kung under Master Chu - www.chutaichi.com - My teacher co-wrote "The Book of Nei Kung" with Master Chu.

#3 Spirit of the Tiger

Spirit of the Tiger

    Tao Wizard

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 79 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 18 December 2011 - 09:20 PM

Wujishi Breathing Exercise is a short little book I got recently.


The books here might also be useful? http://www.warriorsofstillness.com/

and... http://www.wujiqigong.net/

and these websites might also prove useful http://www.egreenway...ichuan/wuji.htm

http://precisiondocs.../ZhanZhuang.htm

Edited by Spirit of the Tiger, 18 December 2011 - 09:24 PM.


#4 spiraltao

spiraltao

    nei kung bear

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 778 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:here and there
  • Interests:learning to feel the tao within

    BAGUAZHANG QIGONG anything to keep the hands alive and the heart open.


    LIVING PROOF OF QIGONG RIGHT HERE!

Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:40 AM

I also own Master's Chuen's Way of Power. I can not offer any advice on the how to, as I am not qualified, but I can tell you that I love ZZ and it develops internal energy. In the beginning I got the most from the "holding the belly" posture and what Master Chuen calls the "on guard" posture which is the San Ti stance. As he mentions in the book, it is best to get completely comfortable with the five beginning postures before progressing to the more advanced ones, as one won't get the benefit from them without a proper foundation. I have been doing these standing mediations for a year as a part of my qigong.


Also ZZ just feels better to me outside.:rolleyes:
...I suppose it goes without saying to always start in Wuji to attain song.
Absorb what is useful/Reject What is USELESS




(SOMEHOW) Not gonna die 'tll I'm killed by death


BAGUAZHANG BABY


"Patience Is the GREATEST VIRTUE"

#5 lifeforce

lifeforce

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 476 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Cultivating The Way

Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:43 AM

I let my standing practice go a while back but have the bug again.
A very good blog site here.
San Ti is discussed as well as the lin kong jing method.
The books you have are the best out there as well as 'Empty Force' by Paul Dong, but I would advise some tuition, even if just to adjust your posture, every now and again.
Best wishes

#6 konchog uma

konchog uma

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2914 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:-
    skygazing
    soothsaying
    swashbuckling

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:11 AM

Thanks! I will check all those links and books out. My qigong teacher doesn't teach ZZ, and since i lost my job, its been all i can do to afford to pay him. So it seems like paying another teacher is out of the question. Thats why I want to learn from books.

With that in mind, I would want to read books with a series of posture guidelines so that I can check myself, haha get in touch with my own inner master so to speak :D

I asked my qigong teacher if that was okay, and he said with ZZ it was, as long as I really studied those books and was always correcting myself (i just mentioned sifu Chuen's books to him). He said that if i was smart I wouldn't cause any harm to myself so finish the books before i start the practice. Thats why I am taking notes on Xing Yi Nei Gong, to learn the six harmonies and all the "images" and other guidelines in there. That books is completely awesome btw.

I get the sense that as long as I don't overdo the posture, and as long as I am vigilant in keeping to the guidelines, I should be able to benefit from the practice without causing myself harm. So that's why I'm asking here.. i saw someone on another thread say that one should just hold stance for 3 min in the beginning, working up slowly from there, but never hold a stance for more than 10 minutes. That wasn't anything I had seen in books, so it prompted me to start this thread.

Hope that helps you bums understand where I'm coming from, thanks for the helpful advice

Edited by anamatva, 19 December 2011 - 09:12 AM.

"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#7 ChiDragon

ChiDragon

    無為道人

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:A Semi-Taoist, understand Chinese fluently, who practiced Tai Chi and Chi Kung with noticeable significant results. Especially, interested in acupressure and had performed on myself and wife to cure minor body pains. Study the true meanings of the Tao Te Ching by doing its translation into English.

    Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:04 AM

The key to Zhan Zhuang is to bend the knees while standing. At the beginning is to bend the knees at a small angle with the vertical like 15 degrees. Do not let the knee caps pass your toes to prevent over stress on your leg muscles. Do it as long as you can until you cannot withstand the pains on your legs. Regardless, at the beginning, your legs will be sore for a while. Then, take it easy for few days until your legs can withstand the soreness again. Continue with the procedure until no more soreness or pains on your legs.

During the stance, you may be sweating due to the excess of energy consumption in your legs muscles. You must learn to breathe as deep as you can and slowly. Remember deep as you can but not by force. Your goal is to breathe until your deep breath reaches the abdomen(lower dan tian). Most people do chest breathing, but the Chi Kung practitioners do abdominal breathing. Thus that is the key to Chi Kung. Breathing is what Chi Kung was all about. In Chi Kung, you are cultivating in breathing instead of energy cultivation. However, if you like to think that you are cultivating energy is fine but you must breathe in order to accomplish good result.

Good luck in your practice.


PS...
Increase the bending angles of the knees with an increment of 5 degrees until you can do the stance at 90 degrees without falling to the floor or ground. BTW Most people cannot do it at 90 degrees, only a real master can. Just do your practice to the highest degree that you can....:)

Edited by ChiDragon, 19 December 2011 - 11:09 AM.

靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

               Posted Image

#8 bubbles

bubbles

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1285 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:17 AM

Do not let the knee caps pass your toes to prevent over stress on your leg muscles. Do it as long as you can until you cannot withstand the pains on your legs.


This is important but NOT for the muscles. It is important to prevent injuring your knees if you stand for long periods of time and for the energetic alignments.
bubbles
 
 

#9 lifeforce

lifeforce

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 476 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Cultivating The Way

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:39 AM

In this post I give a link to an article which warns of the dangers of lengthy San Ti practice.
That whole site is an absolute gem of Chinese internal arts masters and their training techniques/history/lineages etc etc.
I didn't pay for any correction in my ZZ practice. A good Taiji instructor should have good knowledge of posture, alignment, sung and will be able to correct any defects, if there are any.
The six harmonies are indeed the focus of holding the San Ti posture. If these are adhered to and constantly worked on, then you are well on your way to a good solid practice.
In days gone by, xingyi students were required to ONLY practice San Ti and nothing else for 3 years or more, in order to develop a strong foundation.
The book is a gem, the exercises are a treasure. You only have to look at the front cover to see a near centenarian performing the set !
I have been practicing them daily for 8 years now, sometimes twice a day. I never suffer from colds, flu's or other viral infections like I used to. I have a light springiness to my movements and feel generally a lot stronger than when I was in my twenties, two decades ago.
The San Ti that is described in the book is a little different to others I have seen. It has a 50/50 weight distribution and a slight forward lean from the waist. The hand position is also a lot lower than the more popular Hebei styles. This can take a little getting used to if you have practiced another form of San Ti, as I had. The double hand san ti is another unique posture which I've never seen in any other form of xingyi. The whole style is a lot more closely related to the mother art of Xin Yi Liu He Quan (awesome !), from which Xingyiquan was derived.
As for general ZZ, you won't get better written material than Master Lam Kam Chuen.
If your interested in developing lin kong jing (empty force), then Paul Dong's book is a must. You could use that in conjunction with the blog I linked. With a strong will, determination and diligence, I believe that you can learn this by yourself, but try and get someone to check your posture.
As I mentioned earlier, I've re-started my regime of daily standing practices.
Xingyi Nei Gong and San Ti in the mornings, and Empty Force training in the evenings.
Best wishes

#10 Mokona

Mokona

    Workin for the Weekend!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 946 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:51 AM

I always see so many cautionary posts. Has anyone here hurt themself standing and deep breathing? :ph34r:
Reality is awesome.

#11 Ish

Ish

    Tao Bum!

  • Steward
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 984 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:59 AM

Correct alignment and relaxation both interplay and effect each other. Progressing towards a deep level of relaxation has a profound effect on the chi energy and the mind.
So my main focuses in zhan zhuang are alignment, relaxation and an empty mind.

Edited by Ish, 19 December 2011 - 12:00 PM.


#12 lifeforce

lifeforce

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 476 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Cultivating The Way

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:00 PM

I always see so many cautionary posts. Has anyone here hurt themself standing and deep breathing? :ph34r:


It's HOW you stand and breathe that's important. It affects the whole of your being. Different arm and hand positions are crucial.
If the arms and hands are held too high it can raise blood pressure and create too much heat. It is VERY important to have proper guidance, or if you learn from written material/experimentation, to read/understand everything thoroughly.

#13 Protector

Protector

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4925 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Pepsi, Fanta, Mustard, Meat, Fresh apples, Females, Learning, Old Cartoons, That Feeling, Horse Stance

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:23 PM

It's HOW you stand and breathe that's important. It affects the whole of your being. Different arm and hand positions are crucial.


YES!
I would like this to be added to the court record :lol:

Abandon all hope ye who enter here


#14 spiraltao

spiraltao

    nei kung bear

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 778 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:here and there
  • Interests:learning to feel the tao within

    BAGUAZHANG QIGONG anything to keep the hands alive and the heart open.


    LIVING PROOF OF QIGONG RIGHT HERE!

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:26 PM

"I get the sense that as long as I don't overdo the posture, and as long as I am vigilant in keeping to the guidelines, I should be able to benefit from the practice without causing myself harm. So that's why I'm asking here.. i saw someone on another thread say that one should just hold stance for 3 min in the beginning, working up slowly from there, but never hold a stance for more than 10 minutes. That wasn't anything I had seen in books, so it prompted me to start this thread.

Hope that helps you bums understand where I'm coming from, thanks for the helpful advice"
"


That too is my main question, how long is too long? I started at holding the postures per Master Chuen's advice, starting with ten minutes and working up twenty plus minutes now. In his book, Master Chuen says that once one can hold the foundational postures for twenty minutes they can move on to the more advanced postures. ...but I have had conflicting advice from a ZZ practitioner in Brazil.



Also, never neglect warming up the joints prior to wuji is one bit of info that I know is very important and makes the standing much more beneficial.
Absorb what is useful/Reject What is USELESS




(SOMEHOW) Not gonna die 'tll I'm killed by death


BAGUAZHANG BABY


"Patience Is the GREATEST VIRTUE"

#15 Mokona

Mokona

    Workin for the Weekend!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 946 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:33 PM

It's HOW you stand and breathe that's important. It affects the whole of your being. Different arm and hand positions are crucial.
If the arms and hands are held too high it can raise blood pressure and create too much heat. It is VERY important to have proper guidance, or if you learn from written material/experimentation, to read/understand everything thoroughly.


Then is it safe at all to follow reading material on the subject? You'd like to think a slight variation of the stance wouldn't be harmful. Or at least it doesn't seem that way, since I've even read posts on the Bums` that the 'chi' will eventually correct the stance by itself, if your working hard to keep yourself in the correct posture over a period of time.

Edit: Not coming from experience, i'm a beginner, just learning is all.

Edited by Mokona, 19 December 2011 - 12:34 PM.

Reality is awesome.

#16 konchog uma

konchog uma

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2914 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:-
    skygazing
    soothsaying
    swashbuckling

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:48 PM

Thanks everyone! except ChiDragon hahahaha ninety degrees?!? ok thank you too chidragon, even though i would point out that one is not faced with an either/or situation when dealing with breathing and qi in their qigong cultivation.. All that i have read and been taught about the five regulations indicates that one is cultivating both their breath and their qi, as well as their physicality, their mind, and their spirit. One need not choose between one or the other, but embrace all of them (in time) as they build on the ones before them

@monoka: i had the same question for my teacher, and he agreed with lifeforce that as long as one is careful and listens to one's body there is no fear of practice from well written books.

@lifeforce: haven't checked that site out yet but thanks in advance!! its gonna have to wait until later, cause its 3:45 and i'm meeting someone at 4 :( thanks for all the helpful words

@jaysahnztao: yeah i have the same confusion. ??? i guess it depends on who you listen to, so i would rather err on the side of caution! I think I'm gonna start soft and gentle, just a few minutes per stance at first, not trying to meditate or focus on emptiness, but trying to listen to my body and feel the flow of my energy.
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users