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Ch. 80, Taoist prophecy?


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#1 Everything

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:38 PM

Chapter 80 seems like a prophecy made by Lao Tzu!

Reduce the size of the population and the state.
Ensure that even though the people have tools of war for a troop or a battalion they will not use them;
And also that they will be reluctant to move to distant places because they look on death as no light matter.

Even when they have ships and carts, they will have no use for them;
And even when they have armor and weapons, they will have no occasion to make a show of them.

Bring it about that the people will return to the use of the knotted rope,
Will find relish in their food
And beauty in their clothes,
Will be content in their abode
And happy in the way they live.

Though adjoining states are within sight of one another,
And the sound of dogs barking and cocks crowing in one state can be heard in another,
yet the people of one state will grow old and die without having had any dealings with those of another.



No idea what to say. Guess I'll just explain how I got to this idea and you guys, in the mean time, tell me if you also think it is a prophecy or not and why.
I recently had two nice people ring on my doorbell after praying to god to show me the way for the second time. The first time I followed gods signs I ended up being lead to nature by a dog. This second time was before I went to bed. I dreamed about a great wise text, with phrases. The first phrase was so intense that it made me lucid. I made and effort to recall it in order to continue reading the next quote in this dream without loosing memory of the first one. It was really hard. I knew that if I indulged too much into the text, I would forget the quote itself. This wisdom was so intense and powerful, I coulden't help but to read on. I should have stopped and woke my self up in its memory, but I coulden't resist the temptation. As if I wanted to take 2 diamonds even though I can only take one. Then I want three, etc, and ended up with none. I read further and ended up forgetting everything I read. Two people rang my doorbell. All I recalled was a vague proof of the wisdom I read in the dreams. This was the third phrase I read of this book that had something to do with a drunken aspect to all of humanity. I can never know how significant it might have been to me, since I forgot it.

The two nice people started talking about the bible, not even bothered by the fact that I just woke up. Why would I reject their message when it was free and they insisted on telling it? I listened patiently and nodded in understanding as they talked about the end times, death of the kings and rulers of the current world, no death in the future, some thing picking up 144.000 people or so to take to heaven. No idea what it ment, but I just nodded and we ended the talk of prophecy with me politely questioning their idea of god and god having a human son l, jesus christ, where I always thought he was not the son but messenger of god. They brought me rumors of paradise and headed on to the next door. It planted a seed in my mind of prophecy. It seems that qu'ran has prohecy and the bible aswell. I wondered wether or not Lao Tzu might have been a messenger of god or follower of the subtle signs of god. I came across this short film about a monk and fish, where the fish was a symbol of god in christianity. Trying to catch it the monk coulden't. The act of hunting the fish raced his mind day and night. Eventually what was an innocent hunt to clear the fish which has disturbed the calm waters of his mind during meditation, became a journey of following the fish. The constant consciousness, focus on the fish and alertness to detect the fish, constant searching and constant hunting, running, chasing, all of it lead. It all lead to great change in this monk. In the end they both head for the heavens and the monk grabs the fish while floating around in heaven and he lets him go. The hunt is long over.

This end of the monk and fish got me thinking that if Lao Tzu did exist, it must have been something like that. There comes a point where peace just is, and there is nothing else. Either that, or you start having a clear picture of what paradise actually is and thus you can be released of eternal chase for paradise. Just the knowledge of a coming paradise must have been enough. The end of times perhaps? I'm sure that every great man always leaves his greatest words somewhere at the end of his life. I read chapter 81. It seems like a last attempt at showing the path of peace, love, unity, god. Then reading 80, it sounded like a prophecy by Lao Tzu!

Edited by Everything, 18 November 2011 - 07:49 PM.


#2 flowing hands

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 03:44 AM

My Masters version doesn't say this at all, you are being misled!

www.life-in-crisis.info


#3 Marblehead

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:15 AM

My friend Everything is thinking too much again.

(I don't believe in the ability to foresee the future, as in fortune telling or prophecy.)


BTW Flowing Hands, that is a nice translation of the chapter you have at your site.

Edited by Marblehead, 19 November 2011 - 04:16 AM.

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#4 Apech

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:18 AM

My friend Everything is thinking too much again.

(I don't believe in the ability to foresee the future, as in fortune telling or prophecy.)


I predicted you would say that!

Seriously ... if the TTC speaks to profound truths about nature and human nature then what it says will be universally true and so would predict in a way what will happen in specific circumstances.
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#5 Marblehead

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 05:06 AM

I predicted you would say that!

Seriously ... if the TTC speaks to profound truths about nature and human nature then what it says will be universally true and so would predict in a way what will happen in specific circumstances.


Yes, I tried to be careful as to how I spoke to the concept of prophecy.

There is a difference between pulling rabbits out of a hat, and studying history, observing the flow and predicting that if A, B, and C occur then it is likely (a given probability) that X will happen.

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#6 Everything

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 05:45 AM

My Masters version doesn't say this at all, you are being misled!

Could you give me a link?

#7 Everything

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 05:46 AM

Yes, I tried to be careful as to how I spoke to the concept of prophecy.

There is a difference between pulling rabbits out of a hat, and studying history, observing the flow and predicting that if A, B, and C occur then it is likely (a given probability) that X will happen.

Isn't that a prophecy?

#8 Everything

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 06:17 AM

Tools of war for troop or batallion? Could be tanks, bombs, planes, whatever.

When there is abundance, free food, etc. Who needs transportation like cars and the like? Technology might transport the food or make it available right where we are. No need to travel far and waste the time of your life.
No more thick populations, finaly no more city life where people live unnatural and like rats.

Not to mention that back in those time it was impossible to hear chickens and dogs from nation to nation. I assume it was custom there to put huge walls and isolate themselves. How ideal would it be for city's to stay connected trough technology, yet never deal with eachother in person and never have any direct influence on eachother.

A true utopia

Wether an african owning a chicken in Africa or an American owning a dog in America, they are diffrent yet have no need to change eachother.

Edited by Everything, 19 November 2011 - 06:23 AM.


#9 Marblehead

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 07:39 AM

Isn't that a prophecy?


I am sure that some would call it that. I prefer "a calculated prediction".

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#10 Protector

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 07:44 AM

somebody watch this movie :lol:

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You don't cut opponent
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You cut two into one

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#11 Everything

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 09:51 AM

I am sure that some would call it that. I prefer "a calculated prediction".

I know allot of people don't like the word prophecy, because they relate it to "messages being communicated to the prophet." They naturally assume that the messages are communicated by some fantasy person, which I don't. When I think of prophecy, I think of a wise man who knows his histroy and thus can predict the future. A historian can predict certain events that are coming up. A prophet can have acces to even deeper wisdom of the most ancient and prophecise the obvious to us oblivious people.

A prophecy is then the prediction that came out of an infinitely complex model based on images and visions that contain a infinite words each. The model is abstracted directly from experience and doesn't have to be filtered trough some language like mathematics or english. Only the prediction becomes translated. The model can also be translated, but becomes abstract when it is done so. It is up to us to see the complexity behind the translation of the taoist model. When we do move away from this abstract text and find its roots, we should be able to trace the roots to the flower come to a similar conclusion like that of ch. 80.

Edited by Everything, 19 November 2011 - 09:54 AM.


#12 konchog uma

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:45 AM

Could you give me a link?


http://www.life-in-c...ao-de-jhing.pdf
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#13 Marblehead

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 01:38 PM

somebody watch this movie :lol:


I don't get many of those movies here where I live. Sad.

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#14 Marblehead

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 01:45 PM

I know allot of people don't like the word prophecy, ...


Okay. I don't have a problem with what you said here.

However, I don't think Lao Tzu was making a prediction of the future but rather longing for days long gone when the population was smaller, before the period of "The Warring States" when people actually lived in peace, there was plenty of land to work, and the people were just too busy living to be bothered with worrying about what their neighbors had.

I reserve the right to be wrong.
 
post-42212-0-11315200-1380315953.jpg          I reserve the right to change my mind.          post-42212-0-03947700-1380315992.jpg
 
Peace & Contentment!
 
 
 


#15 Everything

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:01 PM

http://www.life-in-c...ao-de-jhing.pdf

A small village has fewer people.
Within the village there are machines that can work ten to a thousand times harder than man.
But they are not needed.


Sounds like abondened factory's. Did they have machine's of such power back then? That sounds even more like a prophecy then mine translation, hehe.

#16 Everything

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:24 PM

Okay. I don't have a problem with what you said here.

However, I don't think Lao Tzu was making a prediction of the future but rather longing for days long gone when the population was smaller, before the period of "The Warring States" when people actually lived in peace, there was plenty of land to work, and the people were just too busy living to be bothered with worrying about what their neighbors had.

Before the period of The Warring State, I'm sure the people rode their "wagons". People had plenty reasons to explore the lands back then! I'm sure alot of sloths prefered to stick with the known, but I know that it is during these periods where great thinkers arise to think their way into trouble. If everything is set on map, what reason is there to explore? This also seems to hint at the future and not the past.
Even if it is not a prediction, I'm sure that Lao Tzu was not talking about the past either. Perhaps it is just an ideal image of a perfect society. I think its a pretty good ideal.

I also think that the peaceful people of past that dissapeared never had much armor and weapons. They coulden't even use them properly if they did have some.

I don't think that ch 80 talking about busy people either. Non where to go, living with customs. All having enough food.

Anyone can give me the text in original language of line of ch. 80 that say the people working on the lands? My translation doesn't mention any of it.

Edited by Everything, 19 November 2011 - 02:43 PM.





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