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#17 Marblehead

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:55 PM

Oh how exciting!

I would like to recommend the translation by sinologist Victor Mair as being one of my favorites.

Has anyone else read Mair? I haven't seen him mentioned so far, but I think he captures the spirit of the stories very well.


I have read only a little of Mair's translation and that is what is available on the net as I do not have his work. I wouldn't even be able to say if I like it or not.

If you have his text perhaps you could add his translation of some of the sections as we discuss them.

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#18 konchog uma

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:44 PM

I have read only a little of Mair's translation and that is what is available on the net as I do not have his work. I wouldn't even be able to say if I like it or not.

If you have his text perhaps you could add his translation of some of the sections as we discuss them.


i just might! splendid idea!
"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. in the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this any intellectual way of seeing whatsoever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to see or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism." -Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

#19 InfinityTruth

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 01:29 PM

Just out of curiosity, will there ever be a study on the forum done about lao tzu?
“Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate.” -Chuang Tzu

#20 Marblehead

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 02:37 PM

Just out of curiosity, will there ever be a study on the forum done about lao tzu?


I hope you are talking about the person and not the Tao Te Ching. (Just asking - I need to understand.)

I can speak only for myself and say that I had not considered it.

The study of "The Chuang Tzu" will be of the book, not the person although I expect that on occasion the person will be discussed because what he said will, on occasion, need to be viewed from his point of view.

Well, just now thinking about it, it might be interesting to attempt a study of the person Lao Tzu, his position in society, and why he wrote what he did.

Perhaps we could do that after we finish the TTC and after The Chuang Tzu has gotten rolling.

If no one else has started something please remind me of this possibility and we will see what happens.

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#21 steve

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 03:51 PM

You have a valid point. However,

If an organized way of doing the study is not established then the thread will be all over the place and it would be next to impossible to make sure that the chapters are being considered properly.

My thought were to start with chapter one, break the chapter down into the various concepts that are discussed in it, for example: Chapter 1, Section 1, etc., with each section somehow titled.

I think that we will be able to find and discuss all the concepts in the Chuang Tzu this way and it will be much easier for us to have constructive discussions of the various concepts.

The only formality I would like to see is how each section of each chapter is intially posted in thread opening post.

I think we have done really well with the TTC study and I would like to see The Chuang Tzu handled in a similar manner.

I remain open for suggestions but if we are going to do this it would be nice if we did it in a manner where anyone coming to the board any time in the future will be able to find the concepts they are interested in and further expand the discussion of the concept if they wish to do so.

Also presenting the work in a Chapter, Section format will make it easier for anyone to cross-reference the opening post with other translations.

There will be no moderator for this sub-forum except for the board's moderators so it will be up to us to keep the threads consistent as well as the format for all of the threads.

Please let me know what you think of these comments I just made.

I like your ideas MH. If we're going to dedicate a sub-forum to the Zhuang Zi, I think it would make sense to approach it in a more organized and methodical fashion for study purposes.

The chapters in the Chuang Tzu document are very tedious. I think we should start with describing his personality and what was his general philosophy from what we have already known about him. Maybe we can cite his chapters, individually, to substantiate our notions about him. I think Chapter One is a good place to start to see what was in his mind from his mentioning about the Peng bird and the Kun fish.

My opinion differs on this. None of us know anything about Zhuang Zi's personality. All we can do is make assumptions and reach conclusions based on our personal interpretation and understanding of his works. To me, it would make much more sense to actually start digging into his works and reach our own conclusions as our study progresses rather than have others bias us with their opinions before we even start the study. I have no objection to a concise introduction and we can also consider a topic about Zhuang Zi as a historical person and discuss our opinions of him there. But I would advise letting the work speak for itself, at least in the beginning.
Just my opinion.

I'm beginning to regret having asked for suggestions. Hehehe. Not really but all the stuff rumbling around in my head is making me dizzy.

Well, you know that the Peng and Kun is the first paragraph of the first chapter.

I included a brief summary of Chuang Tzu's philosophy in the introduction to my series titled "Taoist Philosophy".

A link to that could be used unless you want to write a summary of his philosophy and title the thread in the Chuang Tzu sub-forum "Introduction to Chuang Tzu's philosophy".

But I guess you are right in that we should have some form of introduction before we start posting excerpts from the chapters.

LOL - I remember thinking exactly the same thing way back when I started the book club
:lol:
LIke I mentioned above, a topic to discuss Zhuang Zi would work as a place to introduce him and discuss historical knowledge of him, but I'd like to see us develop our own ideas through our study of his work, rather than be too distracted by what others think of his philosophy.

PS I've always liked Thomas Merton's translations as well

Edited by steve, 10 October 2011 - 03:58 PM.

Steve

When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.
When I look outside and see that I am everything,that is love.
And between these two, my life turns.
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


#22 InfinityTruth

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

I hope you are talking about the person and not the Tao Te Ching. (Just asking - I need to understand.)


Yeah, I meant the person. I was already aware of the Tao Te Ching forum. Outside of the Tao Te Ching, I know practically nothing about Taoism.

So you meant the writing of Chuang Tzu. I thought this was a forum where we were studying the person Chuang Tzu.

Although, I thought it was it was funnier than heck how people kept calling him 'The Chuang Tzu.' Now that I know you mean the writing, that makes a lot more sense! :lol:
“Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate.” -Chuang Tzu

#23 Marblehead

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 01:12 AM

Although, I thought it was it was funnier than heck how people kept calling him 'The Chuang Tzu.' Now that I know you mean the writing, that makes a lot more sense! :lol:


Hehehe. Yeah, "The Chuang Tzu" - the book, the philosophy, not the person.

Chuang Tzu - the person.

Most often the book is called "Chuang Tzu" and the author is called Chuang Tzu, which, of course can be confusing.

I just recently started adding "The" to identify the book hoping that it would eliminate some confusion and misunderstandings.

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#24 Marblehead

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 01:15 AM

PS I've always liked Thomas Merton's translations as well


I don't have access to his translation either so it will be up to others (Yourself?, Hehehe.) to add his translation whenever appropriate.

Edited by Marblehead, 11 October 2011 - 01:15 AM.

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#25 JustARandomPanda

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:00 PM

Oh wow. I am excited. I don't own a copy of Chang Tzu so I'm going to be following the discussions in this forum quite a bit. :wub:

#26 Marblehead

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:26 PM

Oh wow. I am excited. I don't own a copy of Chang Tzu so I'm going to be following the discussions in this forum quite a bit. :wub:


Good to hear that. The more people involved asking questions and making comments the more interesting the threads will be.

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#27 Marblehead

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:52 AM

Okay. I am ready to start The Chuang Tzu.

I accepted the recommendation to start with the story of the Kun fish and the Peng bird.

Please understand that some of the opening posts for the sections of the chapters may be rather long because Chuang Tzu is telling stories and it will be difficult to understand the concepts being presented if I break the stories down into too small of sections. But I will break the chapters into as many sections as possible in order to allow for proper discussion of the section being presented and the concepts contained within.

So, anyhow, the story of the Kun and Peng just happen to be the beginning section of Chapter One.

I will first post the index with chapter titles along with a few words then post Chapter One, Section A.

Enjoy and please participate in the discussions because the more participation we have the more value will be brought toward understanding the stories and concepts within.

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#28 rene

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 10:43 AM

Marblehead, congrats and well-met on getting the ZhuangZi section going. Generally speaking I'm not a big fan (because of the unnecessary complicating and twisting of simple LZ themes) but I can appreciate and enjoy that others find ZZ to be their cup of tea. (-:

warm regards
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#29 Marblehead

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 11:08 AM

Marblehead, congrats and well-met on getting the ZhuangZi section going. Generally speaking I'm not a big fan (because of the unnecessary complicating and twisting of simple LZ themes) but I can appreciate and enjoy that others find ZZ to be their cup of tea. (-:

warm regards


Yeah, I already knew that, didn't I? Hehehe.

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#30 rene

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 11:26 AM

Yeah, I already knew that, didn't I? Hehehe.

No, sorry, I didn't know you already knew that. Just wanted to let you know I'd be mostly sitting back in the discussions. I edited out my post in Ch 2 so as to not disrupt the harmony of your explorations. Have fun!

Peace out. (-:
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#31 Marblehead

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 08:16 AM

Note to Section breakdown.

I am trying my best to break the chapters so that they contain as few concepts as possible so that the concepts can be properly discussed.

I realize that many of you would break the chapters down differently. But please understand that I must do this according to how my brain works.

Criticize if you wish but unless I can find a better (for me) way to break them down I will continue to do it my way.


And a meaningless comment: While working with Chapter 2 this morning I became very aware of why I like Burton Watson's translation better than others I have access to. Hehehe.

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#32 Marblehead

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:17 PM

And so, with no further concern about praise or blame, this series will continue.

Please remember that the purpose of this series is to discuss the philosophy of Chuang Tzu.

Jesus can be discussed elsewhere.

I reserve the right to be wrong.
 
post-42212-0-11315200-1380315953.jpg          I reserve the right to change my mind.          post-42212-0-03947700-1380315992.jpg
 
Peace & Contentment!
 
 
 





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