Jump to content


Photo

Bored with Buddist Bickerings


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 thelerner

thelerner

    Been here long enough to know better

  • Concierge
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5919 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:chicago
  • Interests:Getting Closer to Fine
    W/out going too Crazy

Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:14 AM

Because it happens so often, I'd like to see a separate post where we can dump threads that dissolve into Buddhist rants. This happens too often. Nothing to do with the subject, just the same characters arguing over esoteric points of Buddhism.

There should a point where these discussions circles on there tail enough and are thrown into a separate place where the characters can continually rehash the same semantic arguments over and over or just link to there discussion of last week or last month. I'm not saying a discussions on Buddhism belong there, just these devolved discussions of tit for tat that stray far the root. We have people who are hungry to argue with each other, often. Give'em a separate space to do just that.


my 2 cents.

Michael
Push hard to get better, become smarter, grow your devotion to the truth, fuel your commitment to beauty, refine your emotional intelligence, hone your dreams, negotiate with your shadow, cure your ignorance, shed your pettiness, heighten your drive to look for the best in people, and soften your heart. A creed from Pronoia

Where we have stopped dancing, singing, being enchanted by stories, or finding comfort in silence is where we have experience the loss of soul. Dancing, singing, storytelling, and silence are the four universal healing salves. ~ Gabrielle Roth

#2 mYTHmAKER

mYTHmAKER

    .

  • The Tao Bums+
  • 2687 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:17 AM

Because it happens so often, I'd like to see a separate post where we can dump threads that dissolve into Buddhist rants. This happens too often. Nothing to do with the subject, just the same characters arguing over esoteric points of Buddhism.

There should a point where these discussions circles on there tail enough and are thrown into a separate place where the characters can continually rehash the same semantic arguments over and over or just link to there discussion of last week or last month. I'm not saying a discussions on Buddhism belong there, just these devolved discussions of tit for tat that stray far the root. We have people who are hungry to argue with each other, often. Give'em a separate space to do just that.


my 2 cents.

Michael



I just skip them.
Each day
I
maintain
my body,
only to find
the sea once more
at my sand castle.

#3 Trunk

Trunk

    Tao Bum!

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4305 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:City of Angels
  • Interests:bagua qigong

Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:37 AM

..threads that dissolve into Buddhist rants. This happens too often. .. just the same characters arguing over esoteric points of Buddhism.

I can definitely understand the sentiment; it's an issue.

From a moderation stand-pt, tricky proposition. (Various ideas worth considering.)
Easiest solution is for said character/s to request a personal practice section and - if I'm not mistaken - it's been suggested.

- Keith

Music as Compassionate Middle Way: Guitars4Vets.org

Dragon Gate Sanctuary's bagua qigong

 

all good things come from grace,

grace comes from art,

and art comes from work.

- from the movie, A River Runs Through It


#4 JustARandomPanda

JustARandomPanda

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2279 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 02 June 2011 - 08:10 AM

Having a separate forum might be a good idea but I'm not sure it would stop the off-topic posts in the main forum without a new rule added to the Posting FAQs or whatnot that excessive topic-diverging would be modded. Mainly - would the small group that participates in the constant Buddhist threads actually abide by refraining from posting anything about Buddhism except in the area designated for such (personal practice forum as Trunk suggested for example)? Because in actual practice that's what we're talking about. A specific group of individuals, not an anonymous mass or occasional posters.

My guess is that those guys would get really pissed at being told to only post their Buddhist discussions to such an area. Are we prepared to have the uproar it would bring from them? The owner of the board did after all admit the Tao Bums is not run as a democracy. It's a dictatorship. A benevolent one but a dictatorship nonetheless. Now of course anyone who gets ticked off always has the option of just leaving and I suppose some might.

Speaking only for myself I actually like the idea of a separate Buddhist board. Not because I want to shove those threads away but because I like the idea of a separate forum where it is a free-for-all/anything-goes discussion about all kinds of Buddhist topics. I would be very interested in such a forum - much more so than having to wade through disparate personal practice forums.

One other alternative would be to put the individuals who continually deviate the topic on your ignore list. The thread got diverged anyway so it's not like you would be missing discussions on the topic that was begun. That would keep the modding at TaoBums more light and put responsibility back on the person who actually reads the thread for what they're actually reading.

I don't know the answer to this. It's only a handful of individuals who continually send topics into Buddha philosphy anyway and this thread is asking for more modding of them. Are we prepared to do that?

#5 vortex

vortex

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3610 posts

Posted 02 June 2011 - 08:23 AM

I actually enjoy all the tangential Buddhist posts by Vajrahridaya, etc. It's like free lessons for me.
But I'm a Buddhist sympathiser here.. *ducks* :D
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. - Carl Jung
The ability to see in realtime that experience is not self is called enlightenment. - Kenneth Folk
Knowledge can be taught, but skill must be practiced.
Donít move the body Ė you train your Qi. Donít move your mind Ė you train your Spirit. - Fong Ha
I used to sit in full-lotus even on the can but there's not a lot of space in my bathroom. - drewhempel

#6 steve

steve

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4206 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 June 2011 - 08:32 AM

As soon as I see one of these sorts of debates developing my eyes glaze over and I move on. I occasionally will add my perspective, FWIW. I can understand Michael's frutstration - it does seem an unnecessary and endless bickering. Some of the folks who contribute to the Buddhist bickering still have good contributions to the forum and I personally don't want to ignore them for that reason. I generally only use ignore for really unpleasant folks. I don't want to add to the mods' work or make the forum more restrictive either. I wonder if a sub-forum dedicated to deep/esoteric Buddhist philosophy and practice might be worthwhile. I agree with Vortex also - sometimes I do learn something about Buddhism for the threads but they get so deep and repetetive, it is a lot to wade through.
Good luck to the admins - it ain't easy...

Steve

When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.
When I look outside and see that I am everything,that is love.
And between these two, my life turns.
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


#7 Harmonious Emptiness

Harmonious Emptiness

    nemesis: Erroneous Cleanliness

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2946 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:rudimentary
  • Interests:Tao and The Divine Virtue
    道德

    Putting Classical Chinese thoughts into English words.

    If youíre going on a journey, it helps to study maps first. But you won't really know until you get there.

    Wu Wei: The groove that is grooved is not enduring the groove.

    The space between the notes...

Posted 02 June 2011 - 09:07 AM

Perhaps I'm one of these people, not sure, but if it means more stuff to talk about, I think a Buddhist centered room that allows different Buddhist posts would be good, and allow for more of these discussions. I mean, most of Taoism includes Buddhist philosophy so I think it has its place, but I can see how it might help to categorize some things since there are some major divisions between Taoist and Buddhist standpoints, as similar as the two might be. It would also help some interesting Taoist topics to stay in circulation.

It might be difficult, though, to define what is Buddhist rather than Buddhist influenced Taoism or just reflective of Buddhist teaching.

I mean, it wouldn't be cool if we were limited in discussing aspects of Taoism just because a lot of what is understood, technically and philosophically, has been augmented with The Buddha's teachings since before many schools were born.

Maybe, have a Buddhist room (like the kitchen at a party that ends up becoming the party sometimes) for straight-ahead Buddhist centered discussion, but welcome any and all Buddhist(along with every other religion or spiritual path, as always is the case) viewpoints or input in Taoist discussion as it IS still an integral part of most, or at least the most prominent, Taoist schools (sure this is arguable, but this is a discussion forum).

We could have rooms for Egyptian, Mayan, political, ecological, etc., etc., discussion, but that wouldn't make too much sense.

I'd say if it's made by the request of Buddhists, then it's okay, but I'm not sure that most people can differentiate what is Buddhist vs. Taoist since they are so interconnected, interdependent, complementary, symantically similar, etc., etc.. I think to understand some parts of Taoist philosophy, some knowledge/discussion of Buddhist philosophy may perhaps be a requisite.

Be humble, believe in yourself.

"Will is a functionary of desire. When you have many desires, then your mind is scattered; when your mind is scattered, then your will deteriorates. When your will deteriorates, then thought does not attain its object." (from "Master of Demon Valley" trans. by Thomas Cleary


#8 rainbowvein

rainbowvein

    ☼ ★ ☉☌☽ ☯ ☆ ☄

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5306 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:heart tenderizers

Posted 02 June 2011 - 09:29 AM

<3

Edited by Rainbow_Vein, 02 June 2011 - 09:31 AM.


#9 cat

cat

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6132 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 02 June 2011 - 10:22 AM

Participation, frequently, in no - resolution conflictual based discussions that degenerate into ongoing personality clashes should create a question mark in the participators minds, about the productivity or otherwise of their involvement with the board.

Is my posting in this way good for my state of mind?

Is it good for anyone else's state of mind?

Is participating in this thread bringing anything to me that I need?

Am I bringing anything to anyone that is needed or appreciated?

Is what I am bringing being welcomed and received?

in short:

Am I someone who switches my light when there's a fight in the air?

Am I parasitically feeding off internet conflict?

etc etc etc. In other words, being a conscious forum participator... a few questions that one can ask oneself and I'm sure there are others you all know or could think of.

I also like reading what our Buddhist members have to say, and I also glaze over when I see it becoming rapid clique posting that is same old same old conflictual back and forth.

But there is a level of reality here for us all to see, isnt there. Crystal clear, because it's not 'up close and personal' for those of us not participating, what it looks like to see and feel a kind of stuckness, a circular glue formation that refuses to unstick and resolve via the same old methods, yet the same old methods are employed.

Is a creative solution to move them elsewhere, or can they find a creative solution for themselves. For myself, I'm waiting to see if the alchemy is productive and if any transformation takes place, organically. I do hope so.

#10 zerostao

zerostao

    traveling cloud

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5689 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:paradise
  • Interests:elixirs, trees, herbs, harmony
    Spiritual Taoism

Posted 02 June 2011 - 11:55 AM

if the mods are willing to step up for this idea?
seems to be the determinator.

Edited by zerostao, 04 August 2011 - 10:51 AM.

live like an immortal
i am a brother to dragons and a companion of owls
powered by aufheben

#11 steve

steve

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4206 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 June 2011 - 05:22 PM

Participation, frequently, in no - resolution conflictual based discussions that degenerate into ongoing personality clashes should create a question mark in the participators minds, about the productivity or otherwise of their involvement with the board.

Is my posting in this way good for my state of mind?

Is it good for anyone else's state of mind?

Is participating in this thread bringing anything to me that I need?

Am I bringing anything to anyone that is needed or appreciated?

Is what I am bringing being welcomed and received?

in short:

Am I someone who switches my light when there's a fight in the air?

Am I parasitically feeding off internet conflict?

etc etc etc. In other words, being a conscious forum participator... a few questions that one can ask oneself and I'm sure there are others you all know or could think of.

I also like reading what our Buddhist members have to say, and I also glaze over when I see it becoming rapid clique posting that is same old same old conflictual back and forth.

But there is a level of reality here for us all to see, isnt there. Crystal clear, because it's not 'up close and personal' for those of us not participating, what it looks like to see and feel a kind of stuckness, a circular glue formation that refuses to unstick and resolve via the same old methods, yet the same old methods are employed.

Is a creative solution to move them elsewhere, or can they find a creative solution for themselves. For myself, I'm waiting to see if the alchemy is productive and if any transformation takes place, organically. I do hope so.

Wow - I really liked that cat.
Thank you.

Steve

When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.
When I look outside and see that I am everything,that is love.
And between these two, my life turns.
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


#12 thelerner

thelerner

    Been here long enough to know better

  • Concierge
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5919 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:chicago
  • Interests:Getting Closer to Fine
    W/out going too Crazy

Posted 03 June 2011 - 05:23 AM

Participation, frequently, in no - resolution conflictual based discussions that degenerate into ongoing personality clashes should create a question mark in the participators minds, about the productivity or otherwise of their involvement with the board.

Is my posting in this way good for my state of mind?

Is it good for anyone else's state of mind?

Is participating in this thread bringing anything to me that I need?

Am I bringing anything to anyone that is needed or appreciated?

Is what I am bringing being welcomed and received?

Great post. The reason I wrote the post wasn't so much a call for moderators to do anything, rather to let people know they are causing another 'Here we go again' moment as they rehash long arguments that break down along the same lines. They begin to seem more like personal attacks then philosophical discussions.
Push hard to get better, become smarter, grow your devotion to the truth, fuel your commitment to beauty, refine your emotional intelligence, hone your dreams, negotiate with your shadow, cure your ignorance, shed your pettiness, heighten your drive to look for the best in people, and soften your heart. A creed from Pronoia

Where we have stopped dancing, singing, being enchanted by stories, or finding comfort in silence is where we have experience the loss of soul. Dancing, singing, storytelling, and silence are the four universal healing salves. ~ Gabrielle Roth

#13 steve

steve

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4206 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 June 2011 - 01:54 PM

Great post. The reason I wrote the post wasn't so much a call for moderators to do anything, rather to let people know they are causing another 'Here we go again' moment as they rehash long arguments that break down along the same lines. They begin to seem more like personal attacks then philosophical discussions.

It's an interesting dynamic.
The irony is that these long arguments about Buddhism seem to indicate an attachment to our stances on a discipline that is all about letting them go.

Are we digging in our heels because it is important to us to be correct?
Are we trying to convince the other person of our view?
Are we trying to convince ourselves?
:huh:
I wonder how much we look at our own behavior in these debates and try to learn from it.

Steve

When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.
When I look outside and see that I am everything,that is love.
And between these two, my life turns.
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


#14 vortex

vortex

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3610 posts

Posted 04 June 2011 - 11:33 AM

I think Vajrahridaya & Ralis have personified an existential/non-existential crisis between God/Self/Authority & No-God/Self/Authority here.

Ralis doesn't believe in "God" (the ultimate authority), yet is furious at it. Hence, he is angry at any grand authority (i.e. Vajrahridaya) by proxy and a staunch atheist. In fact, the grander and more godlike the authority (see religions), the angrier he gets at it!!! Except, you can't be angry at something you deny exists (unless you secretly believe that it does).

Vajrahridaya professes not to believe in "God," yet is reverently devoted to an authoritative truth like a "God." He compassionately evangelizes it to "save deluded souls" (by teaching them them the truth that they're all inherently empty). But if they are all empty and no Self exists, then who is there to desperately save??

They both profess not to believe in some "God," yet Ralis is enraged at any all-knowing authority (i.e. "God") and Vajrahridaya loyally defends it... They are actually straddling the same fence - which is why their conflict is so intense. :D

Maybe there is no self and no no-self? Wasn't Buddha somewhat vague on this? I don't know.. :wacko:

I'm sure Vajrahridaya does know a lot more about this than I do. I am not disagreeing with him either (his views are probably all correct & I truly enjoy all his messaging here), just saying that he must also still have a little internal conflict if he is drawn into this huge external conflict with Ralis here. There are no coincidences. The outer always reflects the inner. Always takes 2 to tango, even if on a subreality level... So ultimately, this conflict will be something that both will have to resolve within themselves.

Edited by vortex, 05 June 2011 - 11:51 AM.

Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. - Carl Jung
The ability to see in realtime that experience is not self is called enlightenment. - Kenneth Folk
Knowledge can be taught, but skill must be practiced.
Donít move the body Ė you train your Qi. Donít move your mind Ė you train your Spirit. - Fong Ha
I used to sit in full-lotus even on the can but there's not a lot of space in my bathroom. - drewhempel




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users