Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Utter Nonduality


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#33 Otis

Otis

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA
  • Interests:Dance, video

Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:50 AM

Of course, "God" is just a metaphor, so "God is inside of us" is also just a metaphor. If one is inclined to be attracted to the metaphor of God, then why not conceptually bring God back into us?

After all, non-dual realization is that "life is not outside of me". Nor is "the world" outside of me. So why should "the Source" be? The externalization of God/Tao/Source continues to leave the individual in victimhood, alienated from the world. It also gives rise to fundamentalism (i.e. "my experience of God is actually how/who God is").

I think Frantzis' point is to reduce the distinctions within spiritual experience, something I think we can all learn from. And it's to take responsibility for our experience of the transcendent.

The more we try to distinguish "emptiness" vs. "Buddhahood" vs. "luminosity", etc., the more we're mucking about in hearsay and presumption (and fundamentalism!). All I can ever possibly know is "the experience of emptiness", not "emptiness" itself. So why insist on distinctions that I can never truly know?
www.youtube.com/inspiredmayhem

#34 Sunya

Sunya

    Dharma Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2205 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:33 AM

The more we try to distinguish "emptiness" vs. "Buddhahood" vs. "luminosity", etc., the more we're mucking about in hearsay and presumption (and fundamentalism!). All I can ever possibly know is "the experience of emptiness", not "emptiness" itself. So why insist on distinctions that I can never truly know?


Yes, you can truly know such distinctions through experience, and having knowledge of these distinguishes is what allows you to have deeper realizations.


The universe is this arising thought.
The universe is this arising sound.
Just this magnificent arising!
Is Tao.
Homage to all arising.

#35 devoid

devoid

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 336 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:34 AM

[...]
He is coming out with a new product on this stuff:

http://25c16--dm8l0r....clickbank.net/


So, finally it came with a price tag: $ 197 only for several thousands value :D

I say with perfect honesty that this is entirely reasonable. But let me tell you what I had to go through
to come to this decision.

When I first decided to make this course, I consulted a few of my friends that also do trainings and seminars,
and they all told me that a real legitimate energy self-healing course should be up at around $997. And
while I think learning energy work is invaluable, I didnít like what they were saying.

So Iíve lowered the price to what I think is fair for both of us. You get the entire energy work self-healing training
seminar, full of all the techniques that took me my full professional career to learn for only 197usd.

This is something everybody can afford. Those of you that really want to get this course, CAN and ARE going to. Not to mention, you get over $3,000 worth of goodies and treats on top of that!

But hereís the thing: this price is going to increase very soon. I am only initially setting it this low so that my
most serious, responsive students get it at this special rate. I am deadly serious about this. This small price tag
is going to get much BIGGER shortly. All the slow pokes are missing out. So be sure to take action now.



#36 Lucky7Strikes

Lucky7Strikes

    ?

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2290 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 January 2011 - 01:45 PM

The experience is actually somewhat different, but the only words one can put to it are articulated so many times and mis-construed in so many ways.

The same words seem to mean the same thing in different contexts but don't.

Sunya,

The experience is not the same, though I've said before that it is, it is not. It only seems the same on the outside. Internally, because the reference is different, the bliss has a vaster and more subtler point of reference of no reference.

I don't know how to make it more concise of course.. I'm not a Buddha, just someone with a smigen of experience through transmission. If one really reads CHNNRs' books... it becomes quite clear that Buddhism is indeed the clearest form of reference to non-reference. Buuuuut... it's not impossible to come to the realization through other conceptual forms, if one realizes it's dependent origination/emptiness... but most seem to cling to consciousness' experience as independent origination. So, this all goes back to the Hinayana approach which is very important to understand if one is to embrace Vajrayana to the even subtler Dzogchen.

I don't know how else to say this at this moment.

Sunya,

I know you have an understanding of this. ;) You should read CHNNRs' Precious Vase.

The I AM is the characteristic of experience that always is. The emptiness is the ungraspable character of that. Luminosity as all pervading essence, like what everything is made of, the emptiness is its naturem like the sweetness of peaches (mmmm :lol: ).

The terms become confusing once one tries to identify these aspects in experience which is foolish. You can't find the emptiness of phenomena, you can only experience it directly and realize it directly. You can't find I am ness of phenomena, you simply are. The mind cannot hold these two concepts at once, of movement within stillness and stillness within movement because it's function is to construct and label. You can only experience it so. Just rest in the openness of things.

As for the feeling of interconnectivity, I don't know. It feels like everything is interconnected not because one knows one thing is caused from another and so on, but there is a sense that nothing really "belongs" to anything, not even any such thing called a mindstream (I don't even know that term is necessary, because even though everything seems to flow, when the perceptions throw time out the window, it seems like life is an expression rather than some living thing in something, just pure creativity).

I breathe in and I feel the universe collapsing into my view, I breathe out and I collapse into its view. Like having sex with the universe all the time. :lol: :lol:

Everything is like a reflection on reflection on reflection, but this is still conceptual. I haven't experienced this directly. -_- .

Edited by Lucky7Strikes, 31 January 2011 - 01:55 PM.

A thousand petals
Drift into an empty house.

Though the sound of the herder's flute passes by,
The man and the ox are no where to be seen.

-Suh Sahn

#37 RongzomFan

RongzomFan

    Tao Bum!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4733 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:tantra

Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:05 PM

So, finally it came with a price tag: $ 197 only for several thousands value :D



Hmm what are other people's thoughts on it?

Manifestation and Healing DVD

From what I understand, its like 10 hours long....

Edited by alwayson, 31 January 2011 - 02:11 PM.

Stick to Rongzom.  Say No to Tsongkhapa.

#38 vortex

vortex

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3650 posts

Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:24 PM

Seeing directly that you do not inherently exist, but only relatively exist. That there is no truly self existing personal self, nor is there a truly self existing universal Self of all.

That all experiences and phenomena arise inter-dependently and thus are empty of inherent substance, or essence. Even enlightenment is a relative phenomena according to any Buddha and not a revelation of an ultimate, self shining nature, but is rather an insight into inter-dependence, the luminous nature of mind which is also inter-dependent and it's emptiness, which is also dependent and not "independent."

I think I am finally starting to get this Buddhist emptiness thing...

Everything is empty (devoid) of any real "self" or self-identity. A "self" is just the illusion of some separate identity created by a (temporarily) fixed perspective. But once this perspective shifts (Enlightenment), then this illusion is unveiled. Like going from a firsthand to a zerohand POV.


But still working on the dependent origination thing, though...lol.

Edited by vortex, 31 January 2011 - 02:25 PM.

Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. - Carl Jung
The ability to see in realtime that experience is not self is called enlightenment. - Kenneth Folk
Knowledge can be taught, but skill must be practiced.
Donít move the body Ė you train your Qi. Donít move your mind Ė you train your Spirit. - Fong Ha
I used to sit in full-lotus even on the can but there's not a lot of space in my bathroom. - drewhempel

#39 RongzomFan

RongzomFan

    Tao Bum!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4733 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:tantra

Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:29 PM

I think I am finally starting to get this Buddhist emptiness thing...

Everything is empty (devoid) of any real "self" or self-identity. A "self" is just the illusion of some separate identity created by a (temporarily) fixed perspective. But once this perspective shifts (Enlightenment), then this illusion is unveiled. Like going from a firsthand to a zerohand POV.


But still working on the dependent origination thing, though...lol.



Just stick to Dzogchen views, which are definitive.

Emptiness in Dzogchen is primordial purity. Thats a lot simpler right? And it supersedes all lower views!

Dependent origination in Dzogchen has to do with esoteric practices that self-liberate the human body into the Sambhogakāya (rainbow body phenomenon).

Edited by alwayson, 31 January 2011 - 02:35 PM.

Stick to Rongzom.  Say No to Tsongkhapa.

#40 Everything

Everything

    Tao Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1688 posts

Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:32 PM

Sorry another Robert Bruce thread. This forum is a little slow though. Robert Bruce has an interesting take on nonduality. Usually people take nonduality to be a state of mind. But Robert Bruce takes it further saying YOU are literally God. Everyone is a part of YOU. Everyone who prays to God all around the world is actually praying to YOU. Its crazy stuff, that sort of reminds me of some Vajrayana stuff I read about in Chakrsamvara tantra by David Gray.

Robert Bruce uses this power to manifest stuff through verbal affirmations. Verbal affirmations apparently work on the astral plane where your "higher self" is more receptive. Maybe this is how eastern mantras work?

He just came out with a new product on this stuff:

Manifestation and Healing DVD

That site hacked my web browser! Don't click it guys. It has pop-ups. Use ctrl+alt+delete to close the entire windows. Never click on a popup.

#41 RongzomFan

RongzomFan

    Tao Bum!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4733 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:tantra

Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:33 PM

That site hacked my web browser! Don't click it guys. It has pop-ups. Use ctrl+alt+delete to close the entire windows. Never click on a popup.



No thats how Timothy designed it, Robert's business partner
Stick to Rongzom.  Say No to Tsongkhapa.

#42 Sunya

Sunya

    Dharma Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2205 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:27 PM

Just stick to Dzogchen views, which are definitive.

Emptiness in Dzogchen is primordial purity. Thats a lot simpler right? And it supersedes all lower views!

Dependent origination in Dzogchen has to do with esoteric practices that self-liberate the human body into the Sambhogakāya (rainbow body phenomenon).


What does primordial purity mean? You say these words as if everybody understands them. What does pure mean? It has many different meanings for people. Purity in Dzogchen means untainted by concepts, so primordial purity is just the Dzogchen way of saying emptiness.

Dzogchen views do not supersede 'lower' views because they have the same views but through different perspectives. There is much more to Dzogchen than esoteric practices that transform the body. That's advanced stuff and isn't relevant to us at all. First you realize and stabilize Rigpa, which is a term that many people mistake for something beyond other Buddhist schools. It's not. All Buddhist schools aim for Rigpa because Rigpa is the natural state of being and the recognition and realization of emptiness.

As for dependent origination and Dzogchen, you can read this article if you'd like: Dzogchen, Rigpa and Dependent Origination

Dependent origination and emptiness are realizations of the way things are, so I guess yeah it has to do with esoteric practices that liberate the body. Dependent origination also has to do with taking a piss and drinking coffee.

Edited by Sunya, 31 January 2011 - 03:33 PM.



The universe is this arising thought.
The universe is this arising sound.
Just this magnificent arising!
Is Tao.
Homage to all arising.

#43 TheSongsofDistantEarth

TheSongsofDistantEarth

    Taoistic Traveller

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1888 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mystical Desert Canyons of Water, Light and Stone
  • Interests:Zhan Zhuang, Consciousness, Energy, Healing, Desrt Southwest

Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:29 PM

Bruce Lee.........Robert Bruce

Get it? 'Non-Duality' means they are one and the same... :ninja:

Edited by TheSongsofDistantEarth, 31 January 2011 - 03:31 PM.


#44 RongzomFan

RongzomFan

    Tao Bum!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4733 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:tantra

Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:33 PM

What does primordial purity mean? You say these words as if everybody understands them.


I expect them to do their own homework obviously.


Dzogchen views do not supersede 'lower' views


Yes they absolutely do.

There is much more to Dzogchen than esoteric practices that transform the body.


Actually thats the main point and critical characteristic of Dzogchen. You may not like it, but its the truth:)


P.S. I don't know why you linked that article. What was your point? By the way, thats the same guy I get all my Dzogchen info from, Loppon Namdrol.

Edited by alwayson, 31 January 2011 - 03:38 PM.

Stick to Rongzom.  Say No to Tsongkhapa.

#45 Sunya

Sunya

    Dharma Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2205 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:39 PM

Yes they absolutely do.


It would be appreciated if you could respond with a little more of thought out response and an actual rebuttal with content rather than an authoritative denial.

The Dzogchen view is the same as the view of Madhyamaka which is the same as the view that the Buddha taught. The emphasis is different, but the views are the same. You should read Small Boat, Great Mountain for a dialogue between Theravada and Dzogchen.

Actually thats the main point and critical characteristic of Dzogchen. You may not like it, but its the truth:)


I didn't say I didn't like it. It's not relevant. There's a reason Tibetans focus on compassion and wisdom and rarely talk about the esoteric stuff. It can turn into an ego wank very easily.

P.S. I don't know why you linked that article. What was your point? By the way, thats the same guy I get all my Dzogchen info from, Loppon Namdrol.


Perhaps because you said Dzogchen supersedes all views, and right there in that article Namdrol points out that Dzogchen has the same view as Mahayana.

Edited by Sunya, 31 January 2011 - 03:42 PM.



The universe is this arising thought.
The universe is this arising sound.
Just this magnificent arising!
Is Tao.
Homage to all arising.

#46 RongzomFan

RongzomFan

    Tao Bum!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4733 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:tantra

Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:43 PM

I didn't say I didn't like it. It's not relevant. There's a reason Tibetans focus on compassion and wisdom and rarely talk about the esoteric stuff. It can turn into an ego wank very easily.


First off, I don't discount compassion and wisdom.

Secondly, do you really expect hardcore esoteric stuff to be given openly? Usually you have to do a multi-year retreat. This is coming from people I know.

Thirdly, every Dzogchen material atleasts hints about the esoteric practices.

Edited by alwayson, 31 January 2011 - 04:09 PM.

Stick to Rongzom.  Say No to Tsongkhapa.

#47 Sunya

Sunya

    Dharma Bum!

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2205 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:46 PM

Bruce Lee.........Robert Bruce

Get it? 'Non-Duality' means they are one and the same... :ninja:


Yep. I'm hungry. Eat for me. B)


The universe is this arising thought.
The universe is this arising sound.
Just this magnificent arising!
Is Tao.
Homage to all arising.

#48 Lucky7Strikes

Lucky7Strikes

    ?

  • The Tao Bums
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2290 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:47 PM

Yep. I'm hungry. Eat for me. B)

He can feed you though ^_^ .
A thousand petals
Drift into an empty house.

Though the sound of the herder's flute passes by,
The man and the ox are no where to be seen.

-Suh Sahn




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users