Laozi and the magic square

[lienshan]

OK let's just assume for the moment that you are right.

How does this theory of yours enhance either your practice or your spiritual attainment?

There's no right or wrong in this, because it depends of how one reads these two lines:

 

Heaven under joyful advances and no hate

because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below

 

2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder

 

9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh

 

Does the trigram marsh symbolize the moon? The chinese character means "wedge". The trigram nickname is "joyful".

The wedging phases before and after a newmoon do look like a big but that isn't serious enough

[TheTaoBum]

All replies much appreciated,

 

So if i wanted to become a better person or improve my martial arts skill.... Could an example be given here on how to produce such a square ? I suppose you could say im after a demonstration on the practical applications of the square. Knowing the theory is one thing, But being able to apply it in reality maybe alot more difficult i think ?

 

Thanks,

[lienshan]

Well, OK, tao gives birth to one, as the classic put it.

There's an alternative way of reading:

 

To say born I I gives birth to II

 

The character "dao" have more meanings e.g. "to say".

The character "I" means "one" (the number).

The character "II" means two (the number) but does too symbolize "Earth" according to Shuo Gua.

The character "III" means three (the number) but does too symbolize "Heaven" according to Shuo Gua.

 

The opening lines of that chapter look like a typical Lao Dan fingerprint on the text. His main aversion was the "Son of Heaven" nonsense, and his secondary aversion was the double-phrase "Great Dao". And the Lao Dan sentences consist of 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 characters, so that they correspond to a hexagram line; odd numbered correspond to "whole lines" and even numbered correspond to "broken lines".

[Taomeow]

[3bob]

 

Water is the first phase of the Five Phases (Wuxing), and Wuxing arise from Hetu.

 

"Why" is a very deep question when you ask tao why she does things she does the way she does them. A simple answer (Water has sprung from 1 of heaven-yang complemented by 6 of yin-earth -- see Hetu diagram) is that it is the basic arrangement a nonlinear bent (V-shaped) molecule will assume in order to exist, and this arrangement makes it extraordinarily stable. "Simpler" -- e.g. linear or a pyramid -- will be unstable, "more complex" will be, well, not simple enough for tao's taste. Hence the water molecule, the golden mean between simplicity and stability.

 

But then we start descending into complexity, as usual. Water has to have unique and special properties in order to be, um, unique and special enough to start a whole cycle of transformations, compared to other phases. Any phase that is a candidate for starting the whole cycle of transformations of qi will have to be producing, on the level of material manifestations, material that is still the closest thing to qi, the least removed from the whatever-produced-it, the source, the stillness-infused "primal" qi of wuji. Let's see... which phase manifests an element that is the most qi-like in its behavior?..

 

Chemists will tell us that water has 41 "anomalies" compared to other substances, but these anomalies are really "the norm" -- the closest thing to what the source itself is "normally" like -- it's the rest of substances that spin away farther and farther from this state that bear less and less resemblance to this original "norm..." except they deviate from it only to return to it, in a self-replicating cycle that brings you back to Water and then "deviates" away from it again. I found a list of these "anomalies" online -- take a look!

 

 

Water phase anomalies ^e

1. Water has unusually high melting point. [Explanation]
2. Water has unusually high boiling point. [Explanation]
3. Water has unusually high critical point. [Explanation]
4. Solid water exists in a wider variety of stable (and metastable) crystal and amorphous structures than other materials. [Explanation]
5. The thermal conductivity of ice reduces with increasing pressure. [Explanation]
6. The structure of liquid water changes at high pressure. [Explanation]
7. Supercooled water has two phases and a second critical point at about -91°C. [Explanation]
8. Liquid water is easily supercooled but glassified with difficulty. [Explanation]
9. Liquid water exists at very low temperatures and freezes on heating. [Explanation]
10. Liquid water may be easily superheated. [Explanation]
11. Hot water may freeze faster than cold water; the Mpemba effect. [Explanation]
12. Warm water vibrates longer than cold water. [Explanation]

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Water density anomalies

1. The density of ice increases on heating (up to 70 K). [Explanation]
2. Water shrinks on melting. [Explanation]
3. Pressure reduces ice's melting point. [Explanation]
4. Liquid water has a high density that increases on heating (up to 3.984°C). [Explanation]
5. The surface of water is more dense than the bulk. [Explanation]
6. Pressure reduces the temperature of maximum density. [Explanation]
7. There is a minimum in the density of supercooled water. [Explanation]
8. Water has a low coefficient of expansion (thermal expansivity). [Explanation]
9. Water's thermal expansivity reduces increasingly (becoming negative) at low temperatures. [Explanation]
10. Water's thermal expansivity increases with increased pressure. [Explanation]
11. The number of nearest neighbors increases on melting. [Explanation]
12. The number of nearest neighbors increases with temperature. [Explanation]
13. Water has unusually low compressibility. [Explanation]
14. The compressibility drops as temperature increases up to 46.5°C. [Explanation]
15. There is a maximum in the compressibility-temperature relationship. [Explanation]
16. The speed of sound increases with temperature up to 74°C. [Explanation]
17. The speed of sound may show a minimum. [Explanation]
18. 'Fast sound' is found at high frequencies and shows an discontinuity at higher pressure. [Explanation]
19. NMR spin-lattice relaxation time is very small at low temperatures. [Explanation]
20. The NMR shift increases to a maximum at low (supercool) temperatures [Explanation]
21. The refractive index of water has a maximum value at just below 0°C. [Explanation]
22. The change in volume as liquid changes to gas is very large. [Explanation]

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Water material anomalies

1. No aqueous solution is ideal. [Explanation]
2. D₂O and T₂O differ significantly from H₂O in their physical properties. [Explanation]
3. Liquid H₂O and D₂O differ significantly in their phase behavior. [Explanation]
4. The mean kinetic energy of water's hydrogen atoms increases at low temperature. [Explanation]
5. Solutes have varying effects on properties such as density and viscosity. [Explanation]
6. The solubilities of non-polar gases in water decrease with temperature to a minimum and then rise. [Explanation]
7. The dielectric constant of water is high. [Explanation]
8. The dielectric constant shows a temperature maximum. [Explanation]
9. Proton and hydroxide ion mobilities are anomalously fast in an electric field. [Explanation]
10. The electrical conductivity of water rises to a maximum at about 230°C. [Explanation]
11. Acidity constants of weak acids show temperature minima. [Explanation]
12. X-ray diffraction shows an unusually detailed structure. [Explanation]
13. Under high pressure water molecules move further away from each other with increasing pressure. [Explanation]

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Water thermodynamic anomalies

1. The heat of fusion of water with temperature exhibits a maximum at -17°C. [Explanation]
2. Water has over twice the specific heat capacity of ice or steam. [Explanation]
3. The specific heat capacity (C_P and C_V) is unusually high. [Explanation]
4. The specific heat capacity C_P has a minimum at 36°C. [Explanation]
5. The specific heat capacity (C_P) has a maximum at about -45°C. [Explanation]
6. The specific heat capacity (C_P) has a minimum with respect to pressure. [Explanation]
7. The heat capacity (C_V) has a maximum. [Explanation]
8. High heat of vaporization. [Explanation]
9. High heat of sublimation. [Explanation]
10. High entropy of vaporization. [Explanation]
11. The thermal conductivity of water is high and rises to a maximum at about 130°C. [Explanation]

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Water physical anomalies

1. Water has unusually high viscosity. [Explanation]
2. Large viscosity increase as the temperature is lowered. [Explanation]
3. Water's viscosity decreases with pressure below 33°C. [Explanation]
4. Large diffusion decrease as the temperature is lowered. [Explanation]
5. At low temperatures, the self-diffusion of water increases as the density and pressure increase. [Explanation]
6. The thermal diffusivity rises to a maximum at about 0.8 GPa. [Explanation]
7. Water has unusually high surface tension. [Explanation]
8. Some salts give a surface tension-concentration minimum; the Jones-Ray effect. [Explanation]
9. Some salts prevent the coalescence of small bubbles. [Explanation]

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Holy Cow!! Lots of neat stuff.

Edited October 3, 2010 by 3bob

[Stigweard]

 

Water is the first phase of the Five Phases (Wuxing), and Wuxing arise from Hetu.

 

"Why" is a very deep question when you ask tao why she does things she does the way she does them. A simple answer (Water has sprung from 1 of heaven-yang complemented by 6 of yin-earth -- see Hetu diagram) is that it is the basic arrangement a nonlinear bent (V-shaped) molecule will assume in order to exist, and this arrangement makes it extraordinarily stable. "Simpler" -- e.g. linear or a pyramid -- will be unstable, "more complex" will be, well, not simple enough for tao's taste. Hence the water molecule, the golden mean between simplicity and stability.

 

But then we start descending into complexity, as usual. Water has to have unique and special properties in order to be, um, unique and special enough to start a whole cycle of transformations, compared to other phases. Any phase that is a candidate for starting the whole cycle of transformations of qi will have to be producing, on the level of material manifestations, material that is still the closest thing to qi, the least removed from the whatever-produced-it, the source, the stillness-infused "primal" qi of wuji. Let's see... which phase manifests an element that is the most qi-like in its behavior?..

 

...

Groovy groovy

 

Hence the many parallels drawn between Tao and water. So I am assuming then that the cycle remains:

 

1. Water

2. Wood

3. Fire

4. Earth

5. Metal

 

Yes?

 

Next question: How does the Hetu and the Loshu interrelate? The Loshu seems the simpler model hence it is easy to draw the conclusion that it preceded the Hetu. Is this the case? Either way, what is the evolutionary connection between the 2 models?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Please, "leave this turtle to drag its tail in the mud".. and, be vigilant, that the mind does not break the will of the spirit..

 

Be well..

[Protector]

Must revive this thread for great justice!

and because people were talking about bagua lately

 

Say, why is when you're drawing up 5 elements, Wood is always on top?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Must revive this thread for great justice!

and because people were talking about bagua lately

 

Say, why is when you're drawing up 5 elements, Wood is always on top?

 

Wholeheartedly agreeing with Protector, please resume this topic!

 

I'll throw something my small knowledge guesses is a retarded question as a kickstart:

so understanding the trigrams in the context of the magic square (derived from linear and geometrical shapes constructed of dots) helps you understand the bagua and in turn that helps you understand the hexagrams and so on and so forth. *speed version*

 

I'm all new to this aspect of it an my mind's a little blown now. I've studied the I ching a bit and always felt that the way it's marketed (with three coins to flip and a cryptic set of standardized answers provided for the 64 possibilities) was a bit hollow, tried to understand the visual pattern of change occurring and the circular table but to no avail. It just assumes different patterns and recently i saw that these patterns follow different rythm depending on wich organizaion of hexagrams you follow. Each version differing because (i guess) various practicioners had slightly differing views and therefore needed to adapt the tools to suit their method.

 

If studying the trigrams helps you discover things in a certain perspective (as you said earlier that "lake" doesnt mean lake but it points to a dynamic of power that helped shape amongst other things: a lake) what does the succession of hexagrams collected from the DDJ allude to? Does it provide yet another mapping order for hexagrams? Do the hexagrams correlate back to the text somehow, like a third, "deeper" layer of meaning?

 

Another question: how far does a tradition of teaching these methods go? Where is the the line between repetition of an experiment and uncharted territory?

[BaguaKicksAss]

To me it made much more sense when I went out and picked a whole bunch of yarrow, dried it, cut it into sticks, blessed it, then did the iching with it. Those 3 coins, never made as much sense to me.

 

Of course, to make the most sense of it, circle walking in octagons around the Bagua helps too! (is there any post where I don't recommend someone go practice Bagua?)

[Rocky Lionmouth]

To me it made much more sense when I went out and picked a whole bunch of yarrow, dried it, cut it into sticks, blessed it, then did the iching with it. Those 3 coins, never made as much sense to me.

 

Of course, to make the most sense of it, circle walking in octagons around the Bagua helps too! (is there any post where I don't recommend someone go practice Bagua?)

 

And people keep talking about walking around in circles like its a bad thing!

 

The sticks always seemed a lot more fun at least!

How'd you bless it?

Edited September 14, 2013 by Rocky Lionmouth

[dawei]

Hence the many parallels drawn between Tao and water. So I am assuming then that the cycle remains:

 

1. Water

2. Wood

3. Fire

4. Earth

5. Metal

 

Yes?

 

Actually, I don't think so. The five elements are more about the transformation process or cycles which relate to the organs.

 

The maps in question ultimately relate to the meridian clock; the path of energy flow.

 

I finally found a link which one can follow the order of the five elements to see it is not the order of the energy flow:

http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/chinese_clock.htm

 

 

 

Next question: How does the Hetu and the Loshu interrelate? The Loshu seems the simpler model hence it is easy to draw the conclusion that it preceded the Hetu. Is this the case? Either way, what is the evolutionary connection between the 2 models?

 

I have not found a definitive on which was first, but the Hetu may be the older more original simply because it is simpler level of order: It represents the four cardinal directions while the Luo shu represents the eight directions.

 

The Hetu correspondence is as follows:

1-6 combine to create Water

3-8 combine to create Wood

2-7 combine to create Fire

4-9 combine to create Metal

 

The Luo Shu with its eight directions corresponds to the eight vessels and ultimately produced the meridian clock pattern.

 

Say, why is when you're drawing up 5 elements, Wood is always on top?

 

I often see either wood or fire at the top.

 

The Classic of Medicine appears to list Wood first but the relative positions and order of the patterns do not change.

 

 

"The Five Elemental Energies of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water encompass all the myriad phenomena of nature."